• bsdice 8 months ago

    The scam and spam call problem is really bad in Germany to this day. And has been for 10 years.

    A couple years ago I would sit at my desk thinking about a really hard problem in silence. The phone rings. Spam call. Every 30-180 minutes another one. If you now think turn the phone off, well not that easy as CEO of a business when people expect you to be reachable.

    It creamed my corn so much that I recorded my own voice samples as a senile "Opa Denny" (german grandpa Denny), modelled after Lenny. Complete with background ducks hanging out on the couch to Opas dismay, later in the call. It works on autopilot without interaction because on Asterisk, and with the largest German SIP provider at least, you can extract the calling peer identity from the SIP header. So I wrote a scoring system based on indicated number, black and whitelist regexs for number and for calling peer, greylist for the geographically surrounding number prefixes, etc. A legit mobile call would show up as number@t-mobile.de for example, while a spam call would say fakenumber@01012.com.

    Asterisk would record the call in wideband stereo, normalize the audio, and mail it to me as MP3 attachment. Funny for a while, but these days I just throw all such calls onto the mailbox. Since they need a real person to scam or create a sale, the call is finished right away.

    It works great to this day, because I never published it.

    • valzam 8 months ago

      Surprised to hear this as well. I have never received a Spam call growing up in Germany and living there again between 2015-2019. In 2019 I moved to Australia and spam calls have been a constant annoyance due to massive data leaks across all banks and public institutions.

      • globalise83 8 months ago

        I have both a German mobile number and landline number, and have never once received a scam and spam call on either in the 8 years I have been living in Germany. I guess it is a problem of having a public contact number on a website.

        • filmor 8 months ago

          Depends on the prpvider as well. Vodafone seems to have (had?) zero qualms about passing my old landline number to multiple shady call centers after taking over Unitymedia. The number was not known to anyone but my parents and I opted out of erverything I could find, still for some time got weekly calls. I haven't had that woth Telekom so far.

          Spam calls (and even more so: SMS) have gotten much more frequent on my mobile number in the last 2 years. But in this case, it's a number that has been in active use for the last decade and has by now probably been in multiple data leaks... :/

        • lotsofpulp 8 months ago

          > It creamed my corn so much

          Come again?

          Edit: I guess it is in urban dictionary, but my first thought was the last definition listed:

          https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=creams%20my%...

        • Ocha 8 months ago

          Screen unknown callers to VM. Solved all my problems

          • SoftTalker 8 months ago

            I simply don’t answer calls that aren’t in my contacts.

            • ycombinator_acc 8 months ago

              VM? Virtual machine?

              • mcntsh 8 months ago

                Wow the HN crowd is younger than I thought.

                Voicemail

                • arrowsmith 8 months ago

                  I’m old enough to remember voicemail and I’ve never seen it referred to as “VM”.

                  • tim333 8 months ago

                    Not only is voicemail still a thing but just yesterday my iPhone took it upon itself to identify an incoming call as 'suspected spam' and route it to voicemail. I didn't tell it to do that so I guess it's part of some update Apple have pushed. I sometimes wish Apple would ask me first before that kind of thing! Although I probably would have ok'ed that one if they had asked.

                  • Toutouxc 8 months ago

                    Dunno about the US, but where I live (Czechia, in Europe), voicemail is simply not a thing. I've never used it in my life and I don't know anyone who's ever used it, young or old.

                    • dizhn 8 months ago

                      We have it here for mobile but by default providers set it to "call waiting" instead. One of the reasons people don't use voicemail (other than not knowing it exists) is they charge you money to leave a message. Your plan minutes don't count. They probably charge you to listen to messages too.

                  • bdavbdav 8 months ago

                    It’s what old folks use when they could just text or email.

                    • undefined 8 months ago
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                  • undefined 8 months ago
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                    • sandos 8 months ago

                      Wow, I am surprised to hear that. Is blocking calls not a thing there? In Sweden you can say that no sellers may call your numbers, companies where you are a customer excluded though.

                      I never get spam calls or sellers calling me.

                      • account42 8 months ago

                        The only spam I have received with my mobile phone in Germany was the network operator asking me for permission to spam me with ads.

                      • dmurray 8 months ago

                        This is cool when some independent hacker / artist does it as "Lemmy".

                        When a big telecom does it, the second thing they do with it is to fuck up the spam detection so bad that every third phone call I make gets answered by "Daisy".

                        And just think about it - why would a telecom need this tech? They can already drop the spam calls and stop routing calls from the bad actor telecoms who enable the spammers. They don't do that because they prefer to collect a few cents a call from them rather than serve their customers better. It's everyone else who needs this.

                        • waiwai933 8 months ago

                          They're not intercepting calls over their network from suspected bad actors; rather, they've created some phone numbers that always go to Daisy - see https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2024/11/virgin-media-o...

                          • axus 8 months ago

                            Ah! So step 2 is wait for the spammers to automate blacklisting of Daisy phone numbers, and only then start rolling out a (paid) Daisy option to customers.

                            Not connecting calls doesn't waste spammer money, but maybe Daisy does.

                            If the big telco can find 10 righteous callers from a a bad actor telecom, they should keep routing the calls.

                            • ensignavenger 8 months ago

                              Then, once the spammers have blacklisted the Daisy numbers, cycle those spam-free numbers to their customers and start a new batch of Daisy numbers. This way, there is a constant flow of spammer free numbers being cycled into the pool. Of course, everyone and their dog wants your phone number, so you will have to be careful who you give it to if you want it to stay spam-free.

                              • ronsor 8 months ago

                                > Then, once the spammers have blacklisted the Daisy numbers, cycle those spam-free numbers to their customers and start a new batch of Daisy numbers.

                                This is actually genius. The spammers will have blacklisted all of their targets eventually.

                                • lhamil64 8 months ago

                                  Until they catch on and un-blacklist the numbers periodically.

                                  • Szpadel 8 months ago

                                    we all know the end game: ai scammer talking to ai granny

                                    • flir 8 months ago

                                      As long as the scammer's paying to route the call, I'm ok with this. And the telcos' fitness function for their pool of robogrannies should be time-spent-on-call. Making it uneconomic is the way to kill it.

                                      • undefined 8 months ago
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                                        • etlabaume 8 months ago

                                          Half of the spam calls I get today are AI. And I get more or less one spam call a day.

                                          • dools 8 months ago

                                            AI Guilfoyle and AI Dinesh

                                            • red-iron-pine 8 months ago

                                              dead internet theory, telco edition.

                                              presumably someone is still getting charged for calls and AI -- and therefore someone is making money -- in this situation though, non?

                                      • ttul 8 months ago

                                        My friend works for a big telco and is the guy fixing this problem for them. They have amazing powers of deception when they need it. New numbers can be conjured up at any time.

                                        • simfree 8 months ago

                                          The new fad among wireless carriers here in the US is to route what they think are spam calls to a fake voicemail box.

                                          Voicemail that is left in this generic voice mail box never makes it to their customer and the customer is completely unaware that some of their calls have been diverted.

                                          • jollyllama 8 months ago

                                            Wow. There should be a way to opt out of this, at least. Isn't this a violation of common carrier laws?

                                            • D-Coder 8 months ago

                                              Sounds like a shadow-ban.

                                              • immibis 8 months ago

                                                Then suddenly, calls from consenting callers to consenting receivers are labeled as spam and blocked. What can you do about it? Nothing. Switch to email, I guess. Oh wait, same problem.

                                                • efitz 8 months ago

                                                  You sound like an advocate for telemarketers. Am I correct?

                                                  I doubt very seriously that the pool of people who have knowingly and intentionally and explicitly opted in/consented to telemarketing - that is, without any dark pattern involvement and with a clear and unmbiguous consent experience, is very large. In fact I think it is infinitesimal because I can’t recall seeing such a consent UX- they ALL involve dark patterns. And if you pair that with “marketer who diligently implements all state & FTC requirements and does timely and accurate processing of removal requests, I think that the 3 relationships left are web app UX testers.

                                                  I think the world would be a better place without telemarketing or email marketing. Maybe a “one email per year” limit per merchant who you have actually paid money to and not opted out of.

                                                  • gbear605 8 months ago

                                                    I’m not OP, but my worry is about the false positives. I have real inbound calls and emails getting detected as spam all the time. Luckily my VoIP provider has a spam box I can look in, but at this point I just have to go through them every so often to make sure I’m not missing anything important.

                                                    If the telecoms can perfectly predict the telemarketers, then I’d love it. But in practice how often is this going to block people I know from calling me? Probably not never, and then we just have to give up on phones as a reliable method of communication.

                                                    • spacebanana7 8 months ago

                                                      Exactly. Many people want to be able to receive phone calls from their doctors, airlines and schools. These types of B2C calls are presumably most likely to be marked as spam in the event of false positives.

                                                  • EasyMark 8 months ago

                                                    I’ll take my chances. 99%of the people I want to talk to either email/text me first or are already in my contacts list (which I’m not really all that picky about). I’ll accept that failure rate.

                                                    • akoboldfrying 8 months ago

                                                      Isn't "emailing you first" just kicking the can down the road? What stops spam emails getting through to you? (Besides the exact kind of heuristic filtering you seem to be objecting to, that is.)

                                                      • spacebanana7 8 months ago

                                                        Email spam filters have the advantage of being able to see the content of the message, so hopefully they're more accurate.

                                                        The disadvantage of email is that it doesn't work for urgent use cases, like Disneyland calling the parent of a lost child.

                                                        • red-iron-pine 8 months ago

                                                          Disneyland will have a handful of IPs and phone numbers, and I'd bet my hat will have a team aggressively calling any ISP or provider that flags them as spam.

                                                      • BlueTemplar 8 months ago

                                                        Even better : ignore unknown numbers, real unknown people can leave voicemail.

                                                        (Hopefully leaving voicemail keeps out of reach of spammers, I guess it's just too expensive for them ?)

                                                      • kabdib 8 months ago

                                                        reductio ad absurdum: we're back to Pony Express

                                                        • connicpu 8 months ago

                                                          Bulk scams by mail are at least less common because mail fraud is investigated pretty seriously and results in federal felony charges. Not to mention the cost of initiation is much higher. Unfortunately individuals are still sometimes targeted.

                                                          • ethbr1 8 months ago

                                                            > Not to mention the cost of initiation is much higher

                                                            This is the thing we screwed up for email and phone (after per call fees dropped to zero).

                                                            It's not rocket science to create systems that net to zero for common usage (balanced in-bound vs out-bound), but charge an arm and a leg for bulk senders.

                                                            • immibis 8 months ago

                                                              Until you're running a file server or the equivalent. There has to be some way for a willing recipient to zero-rate or reverse-charge the responses to their requests. The Internet gets this wrong.

                                                            • plagiarist 8 months ago

                                                              The physical mail spammers know to only use deceptive tricks, like "FINAL NOTICE" or pretending to be affiliated with you using some publicly available information. I have not yet seen one dare to full-on lie, because there would be real consequences.

                                                              If a scammer puts "FINAL NOTICE" on a solicitation they mailed with no prior relationship, I do still report it as fraud. But that's probably wishful thinking.

                                                            • immibis 8 months ago

                                                              I called out email because email actually has this problem. It's not reductio ad absurdum if it's true.

                                                              • telgareith 8 months ago

                                                                Simple: shoot the messenger.

                                                                • efitz 8 months ago

                                                                  The pony express put significant cost burden on the sender per message, which is inherently self regulating.

                                                              • connicpu 8 months ago

                                                                Not sure about all carriers, but on mine I still get a push notification when a call gets blocked blocked by the spam filter.

                                                              • neilalexander 8 months ago

                                                                Better yet, route all calls for all disconnected/unassigned numbers in their part of the numbering plan to it. It would probably kill robocalling overnight.

                                                                • connicpu 8 months ago

                                                                  Who tells them the number is disconnected? That would have to come from the shady carrier enabling this stuff.

                                                                • worthless-trash 8 months ago

                                                                  I hate to say this.. but I find this very difficult to believe..

                                                                  I don't think any telco puts effort into stopping spammers.. I'd like them to but I don't think it's something they either can care or legally capable of fixing.

                                                                  • Anamon 8 months ago

                                                                    I work for a telco, though not in that department. We put a lot of effort into trying to block spam calls, and adapting systems to the newest tricks. The reason why the results aren't better is (I'm being told) a combination between IP telephony making reliable source tracing all but impossible, and common carrier laws which mean that you can't block a call unless you're 100% certain it's a scam, otherwise you open yourself up to being sued.

                                                                    • worthless-trash 8 months ago

                                                                      I imagine that many of us would gladly accept blocking call with a much lower certainty. Maybe we need an audio catcha.

                                                                      Thank you for the insight.

                                                                • carlosjobim 8 months ago

                                                                  > If the big telco can find 10 righteous callers from a a bad actor telecom, they should keep routing the calls.

                                                                  Why?

                                                                • knicholes 8 months ago

                                                                  Ah, so it's a honeypot.

                                                                • Lio 8 months ago

                                                                  I think you mean Lenny[1] not Lemmy. Although I think it would be incredibly funny to have scammers talking to the voice of Lemmy[2].

                                                                  1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenny_(bot)

                                                                  2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemmy

                                                                  • dmurray 8 months ago

                                                                    My mistake, but I completely stand over my words: it's cool if someone sends scammers to talk to the disembodied voice of Lemmy Kilmister, not cool if Vodafone or O2 license his likeness to do the same thing.

                                                                  • averageRoyalty 8 months ago

                                                                    If you mean Lenny, I've got bad news for you. The gentleman who created Lenny was a fairly high up person at a telco, and continues to be.

                                                                    • gorkish 8 months ago

                                                                      If every third call you make goes to Daisy you are using shit data and are likely part of the problem. Are you absolutely sure they are fucking up the spam detection, or are you just doing all of your cold calling with blinders on?

                                                                      • barbazoo 8 months ago

                                                                        Let's ignore the real problem and distract the plebs by building some cute AI tool instead.

                                                                        • bn-l 8 months ago

                                                                          Would it help to know that

                                                                          > Influencer and reality TV star, Amy Hart, has worked with Daisy to produce a shocking video to show how she’s taking on phoney fraudsters

                                                                          • svachalek 8 months ago

                                                                            Wait, is a phoney fraudster an honest person?

                                                                            • FredPret 8 months ago

                                                                              Like a scam caller who then genuinely helps you somehow

                                                                            • Timwi 8 months ago

                                                                              If that video really existed and was as shocking as they imply, they would have linked to it.

                                                                        • ddtaylor 8 months ago

                                                                          I love that they are weaponizing the perceived kindness of senior citizens in this way. Many of the victims of scams are some of the nicest people ever that were taken advantage of in some capacity - usually while trying to help someone. It's the digital age equivalent of staging a broken down cart and then robbing some old folks. I think most of us hate the idea of the "solution" being to not go near anyone with a broken down cart out of fear.

                                                                          I'm not saying this fixes everything, but I would rather a world where scammers odds at making a living at this are so poor they won't bother versus a world where everyone has to block every number by default and live in metaphorical bunkers to never interact because you might be a scammer.

                                                                          • e-khadem 8 months ago

                                                                            > I would rather a world where scammers odds at making a living at this are so poor they won't bother

                                                                            Then what's stopping the scammers from finding another "evil" job that makes money? You have to remember that humans tend to not enjoy accomplishing thievery and the scammers most often do this out of necessity. Of course there are big call center operators who truly are terrible people, but this conclusion is true for the bulk of their workforce.

                                                                            • ddtaylor 8 months ago

                                                                              > You have to remember that humans tend to not enjoy accomplishing thievery and the scammers most often do this out of necessity.

                                                                              There are endless ways to earn an honest living. Nobody stealing from vulnerable people and the mentally degraded is forced to. I fully believe that people can survive without scamming seniors for a paycheck.

                                                                              • botanical76 8 months ago

                                                                                What is your suggestion? It seems like you could discourage any form of preventative action against immoral behaviour this way. There is _always_ something worse than the problem at hand.

                                                                                • ddtaylor 8 months ago

                                                                                  It's a very common way of justifying poor behavior or criminal activity. It's basically "if they didn't sell the drugs someone else would" or "if they didnt steal someone else would" etc.

                                                                                • CarpaDorada 8 months ago

                                                                                  The big call center operators usually have political backing too.

                                                                              • xnx 8 months ago

                                                                                Seems like the logical endpoint of a lot of this is people getting paid directly for their attention. Want to call me? I've set a price of $5/call that I answer, and an additional $10/minute of listen time after the first 10 seconds. Want to send me an email? $1/email and $5/100 words. Anyone I have emailed is automatically on my allow-list, which I can also adjust manually.

                                                                                • mos_basik 8 months ago

                                                                                  That's EVE Online's approach to fighting ingame "email" spam [0].

                                                                                  Every player can configure an amount of ingame money that is levied from a sender's account to deliver a message to them. It's a currency sink, so it's themed as a "tax" levied by the NPCs and its value is destroyed rather than paid to the recipient of the message.

                                                                                  I thought it used to default to 5 ISK (a pittance, something you can make back by shooting a single NPC pirate ship). I see some references to the default being ~2000 ISK at the time that it was changed to 0, where it is now.

                                                                                  Worked pretty well, imo. Players that need to be publicly contactable (people who organize public events, for instance) can turn it off easily. People who are "space famous" can crank it up to reduce targeted spam. Even at the default setting, it's effective at keeping ingame scammers from blasting the whole player list with messages (at least, the poor ones :). Doesn't apply to people you've already exchanged messages with. I think there's also some allowlisting you can do, etc.

                                                                                  0. https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/EVE_Mail#CONCORD_Spam_Prevent...

                                                                                  • ryandrake 8 months ago

                                                                                    > it's themed as a "tax" levied by the NPCs and its value is destroyed rather than paid to the recipient of the message.

                                                                                    It’s a cool idea and would work good for real world fines, too: fines that destroy the money paid instead of transfer it (to the city, the court, the police and so on). The fines would disincentivize bad behavior, while also not incentivizing the police to “go generate some crime” because it pays them.

                                                                                    • xnorswap 8 months ago

                                                                                      Some argue that's how taxes work already. Taxation destroys money, government spending creates money.

                                                                                      MMT (modern monetary theory) argues that taxation isn't about "funding", it's actually about controlling inflation.

                                                                                      MMT is somewhat controversial.

                                                                                      • ryandrake 8 months ago

                                                                                        Totally agree, but only if those taxes go to the entity that creates the money. From the federal government's point of view, who prints money, there is zero difference between collecting money and throwing it in a furnace. Both do the same thing. Money is just a piece of paper that says "the government owes you a debt of one buck". So if it is returned to them, they no longer owe it to you, and if it gets destroyed, the same thing is true.

                                                                                        But if those taxes go to the State of California, it's different. They don't print money, so it becomes a real debt to them. Destroying it in that case would cancel that debt and free the debtor (the Treasury) from that obligation.

                                                                                    • xnx 8 months ago

                                                                                      Great real world functioning example.

                                                                                      The idea in general seems to have been around since 1992: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashcash

                                                                                    • tokioyoyo 8 months ago

                                                                                      And maybe like a temporary hold of the money, so you get it back if I’m convinced it’s not spam. Probably would resolve 99% of spam issues in the real world and create a chain of trust. Add some temporary disabling feature as well if you’re expecting a call from a random number too, so you’re set.

                                                                                      • swores 8 months ago

                                                                                        Sounds like a great solution to the minority of people like you and me who wouldn't mind the added steps of approving every real phone call as not spam after, having to remember how to set that you're expecting a call from a random number, etc. I can't see it being acceptable to enough people for any network to go down this road unless spam levels get way worse.

                                                                                        • tokioyoyo 8 months ago

                                                                                          Not approving all the time, just setting every call by default to $1. Everyone who knows you will call knowing they’ll get their money back. And you can do an easy “add everyone in your contacts to a whitelist”, boom done.

                                                                                          • another-dave 8 months ago

                                                                                            It'd work well for both ends of the spectrum (spam callers & friends) but think would kinda fall down in the middle though — kids' school, doctor's office, plumber coming to service your boiler.

                                                                                            Where you are expecting a call and it's definitely not spam, but they're not going to be ringing from a pre-approved whitelist. Don't think they'd want to be putting $1 per call on the line and hoping for people to remember to click the right button afterwards

                                                                                            • BlueTemplar 8 months ago

                                                                                              The plumber at least is presumably paid a lot more than $1 for doing that job, and they would most likely just pass the cost onto you ?

                                                                                          • toss1 8 months ago

                                                                                            Spam is already at the level of changing people's default behavior from answering calls that come in to (as I saw described abt younger mobile users) "would rather pick up a live hand grenade than an unknown caller"

                                                                                            Personally, my default was to pick up and is now if recognized contact pickup, if not and I'm expecting an unknown call, scrutinize, then if pickup, only answer with a cough or two — never "hello" or "yes" due to threat of voice cloning escalate to banks.

                                                                                            Spam is universally detested

                                                                                            My assessment is that voice calls are on the verge of going obsolete if the telcos fail to get a handle on spam. Yet the telcos behave as if they have no clue whatsoever and DGAF.

                                                                                            • plagiarist 8 months ago

                                                                                              Reporting spam should be the other way around, it defaults to assuming a normal interaction.

                                                                                              Consider: if you get harassed with a call or text you don't like, you send an SMS with that phone number to some known short code. You then receive $1 from the caller. If the caller cannot be found, the last verifiable link in the chain is responsible for paying the fine.

                                                                                              This would cause carriers to behave overnight, instead of allowing foreign call centers to spoof other people's real private numbers with your area code.

                                                                                              • red-iron-pine 8 months ago

                                                                                                couldnt they just automate ways to handle the code?

                                                                                                plus a lot of spam comes out of compromised phones, or compromised systems. what good is this if i have your phone, or just your SIM?

                                                                                                • swores 8 months ago

                                                                                                  That sounds a lot better to me

                                                                                                  • kyleee 8 months ago

                                                                                                    At least we can dream, ehh?

                                                                                              • speerer 8 months ago

                                                                                                Satoshi Nakamoto's first visionfor Bitcoin was just this - pay-to-send email.

                                                                                                • wcoenen 8 months ago

                                                                                                  I think you're thinking of Hashcash? Not invented by Satoshi, and not pay-to-send exactly. It's proof-of-work for email.

                                                                                                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashcash

                                                                                                  • speerer 8 months ago

                                                                                                    I'm certain Satoshi was thinking of Hashcash! But I did mean what I said, though it wasn't until Martti Malmi released his emails with Satoshi that I knew this, and so might not be well known:

                                                                                                    https://mmalmi.github.io/satoshi/

                                                                                                    > "[this next bit turned out to be very controversial. there is extreme prejudice against spam solutions, especially proof-of-work.]

                                                                                                    > It can already be used for pay-to-send e-mail. The send dialog is resizeable and you can enter as long of a message as you like. It's sent directly when it connects. The recipient doubleclicks on the transaction to see the full message. If someone famous is getting more e-mail than they can read, but would still like to have a way for fans to contact them, they could set up Bitcoin and give out the IP address on their website. "Send X bitcoins to my priority hotline at this IP and I'll read the message personally."

                                                                                                  • petesergeant 8 months ago

                                                                                                    90% sure this was also an idea in Bill Gates’ “The Road Ahead”

                                                                                                  • guidoism 8 months ago

                                                                                                    That's similar to the idea I had for combating texting spam: - If your number is in my address book then texts are free for you - If this is the first time you are contacting me then you pay me $1

                                                                                                    There are probably downsides and ways this will screw up real relationships but it will certainly increase the cost of spam.

                                                                                                    • Nition 8 months ago

                                                                                                      One issue I can forsee:

                                                                                                      - Every contractor (plumber etc) you hire will ask you to please add them to your contact list first so that they can message you.

                                                                                                      - After a while of half their clients not doing that and lots of fees on their end, contractors stop providing a phone number at all, asking you to please install ContractorApp to communicate with them.

                                                                                                      • thejazzman 8 months ago

                                                                                                        I love every part of this. Not having things in writing is one of the most common tactics with bad contractors. And I miss their call backs because I have unknowns goto spam, so I have to remember to disable that feature...

                                                                                                        • GoblinSlayer 8 months ago

                                                                                                          Here they do already use watsapp, viber etc for communication, maybe because they are cheaper.

                                                                                                          >Every contractor (plumber etc) you hire will ask you to please add them to your contact list first so that they can message you.

                                                                                                          This is reasonable. If they want to reach me, they should whitelist in advance instead of hoping they can randomly get through.

                                                                                                          • red-iron-pine 8 months ago

                                                                                                            aye. i have a business relationship with these people, let me know how to communicate with you ahead of time so I can whitelist or clear that.

                                                                                                          • crummy 8 months ago

                                                                                                            Maybe when you first receive a text you see:

                                                                                                            This message is from an unknown number. (Accept / Block / Charge sender $1)

                                                                                                            • telgareith 8 months ago

                                                                                                              Well, that just invokes we-had-a-baby-its-a-boy

                                                                                                              • sailfast 8 months ago

                                                                                                                They had a baby.

                                                                                                                It’s a boy!

                                                                                                                That said - perhaps harder to change the name that shows up as quickly as you could leave a recorded name? :)

                                                                                                                Still one of the best ads ever made.

                                                                                                              • Nition 8 months ago

                                                                                                                Ha! Okay, I like this, I think it changes my mind on the whole thing being viable. There's probably some reason it wouldn't work in reality but the satisfaction from pressing the charge $1 option on spam would be huge.

                                                                                                                I disagree about the we-adda-baby-itsa-boy issue. I don't see how that'd apply given that you can charge them $1 from the very first message.

                                                                                                              • zeroonetwothree 8 months ago

                                                                                                                They already charge $200 so I doubt $1 extra is going to matter.

                                                                                                                • asah 8 months ago

                                                                                                                  one click to add from the first message = $1 total cost.

                                                                                                                  contractors can add this to their invoices if they care.

                                                                                                                • jameshart 8 months ago

                                                                                                                  You just made the new scam ‘persuading you to text me’. I get $1 for everyone I fool!

                                                                                                                  • odo1242 8 months ago

                                                                                                                    Presumably the money would go to the telecom company, I think. Still very good for trolls though.

                                                                                                                • wzsddtc 8 months ago

                                                                                                                  I think you have just described LinkedIn's business model, minus the fact that you don't get the money but the filter provider does.

                                                                                                                  • xnx 8 months ago

                                                                                                                    Yes. There are all kind or brokers selling the attention of their audiences: Google, TV Networks, podcasts, LinkedIn, etc. I'd like to see another attempt at disintermediation in the space.

                                                                                                                  • bawolff 8 months ago

                                                                                                                    If you have already sorted the world between people you want to take calls from and people you don't, why wouldn't you just block the people you don't want instead of charging them money?

                                                                                                                    • dotancohen 8 months ago

                                                                                                                      Because there's a middle ground of people who we have not yet categorized. I don't know every phone number my doctor might call me from.

                                                                                                                      • anonzzzies 8 months ago

                                                                                                                        My doctor, bank, eh well everyone, will text or email me if they cannot reach me. I haven't answered a number I don't recognize for the past 10 years; life is excellent.

                                                                                                                        • bawolff 8 months ago

                                                                                                                          And you think your doctor would be willing to pay for the privledge of talking to you?

                                                                                                                        • xnx 8 months ago

                                                                                                                          My attention is valuable. I should be able to sell it on my terms.

                                                                                                                          • bawolff 8 months ago

                                                                                                                            Is it though? Like it might be valuable to you, but i doubt its valuable to anyone else in a phone call situation and both parties need to find value to make a sale.

                                                                                                                            Like if you are interested in the convo then you should be paying the other person as you are getting value from the convo.

                                                                                                                            What's the situation where you don't care about the convo but for the right price you could care, and the other party also thinks that price is reasonable? Like maybe if someone is trying to recruit you i guess, but the situations where that is true seem very few and far between (and we already have a system for that, where traditionally someone offers to buy you a meal in exchange for listening)

                                                                                                                            • ethbr1 8 months ago

                                                                                                                              > What's the situation where you don't care about the convo but for the right price you could care, and the other party also thinks that price is reasonable?

                                                                                                                              Minimally targeted advertising.

                                                                                                                              • bawolff 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                Why would the other party think the price would be reasonable? Like the entire point of minimally targeted ads is to spray and prey.

                                                                                                                                Like if you assume a CPM of $2, that means $0.002 per phone call. Would you really find that acceptable?

                                                                                                                                If the answer is no, then you aren't really accepting payment,you are just blocking people with extra steps. No different than if you said you will accept a phone call for a billion dollars. You aren't really accepting something for payment if you set a price that nobody will pay.

                                                                                                                              • lozf 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                > Is it though?

                                                                                                                                Marketers seem to think so, or they wouldn't waste their time calling.

                                                                                                                              • vinceguidry 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                No way to vet the quality of your offering makes a both-ways attention economy fundamentally unworkable in a Western society. If you were really prepared to be an 'attention worker', then you could go work at a click farm or content moderation firm or the like, one of the fastest growing markets in the developing world.

                                                                                                                                Best I can offer you is an in-game bonus for watching an ad.

                                                                                                                                • kspacewalk2 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                  No one's buying your attention on your terms. They're only exchanging it for the online services you want to use. No attention, no services, better up your subscriptions budget or make do without.

                                                                                                                                  (Sorry if I'm being blunt, attention economy participants can't be so they'd sugar coat it to such a degree that you might miss the point).

                                                                                                                              • carlosjobim 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                Even if it was 20c per call/e-mail, it would solve the spam problem overnight, while not interfering significantly with legitimate communication.

                                                                                                                                • j2kun 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                  Pay to email has been tried multiple times, and failed.

                                                                                                                                  • janalsncm 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                    I have considered creating this email service. I’m sure many others have as well, in some form or another. Does it already exist?

                                                                                                                                    • IshKebab 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                      Well... I still get SMS spam. I assume spammers just use other people's hacked phones.

                                                                                                                                      • Scoundreller 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                        You can get a sim for a few bucks and spam under the rate limit.

                                                                                                                                        You can buy jigs that hold hundreds of SIMs connected to a handful of cellular modems connected to a c&c and drip them out.

                                                                                                                                        • IshKebab 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                          Right but it costs money to send SMSs. At least it used to. I dunno if they've given up charging for that now since nobody uses them. Tbf I haven't seen a phone contract without unlimited texts for at least a decade I guess.

                                                                                                                                      • zahlman 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                        How exactly do you propose to collect the money?

                                                                                                                                        • edelbitter 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                          Or.. just have telcos do that to each other, instead of offloading any more of their service onto their customers/victims?

                                                                                                                                        • watusername 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                          If you use a VoIP service like Twilio and voip.ms, you can set up a very simple IVR menu that just asks unknown callers to press 1 to be connected to you. No AI involved.

                                                                                                                                          For me, this has been surprisingly effective against robocalls. Obviously this isn’t going to work against scammers who call directly, but most of the spam calls I receive start with some pre-recorded message which isn’t going to pass the menu.

                                                                                                                                          Edit: s/auto/pre

                                                                                                                                          • Ronnie76er 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                            My Pixel 8 (not sure what other Android phones do this) can screen calls using their AI assistant. It asks what the call is about. If they answer, it displays the text to you as it rings through.

                                                                                                                                            It sounds surprisingly human-like, even saying "Hello?" in a slightly annoyed tone when the other person doesn't respond in time.

                                                                                                                                            • koyote 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                              Those Pixel features are underrated.

                                                                                                                                              Another good one is for the phone to stay on hold for you. That one has been extremely valuable to me as Qantas would regularly keep me on hold for over 5 hours when I tried to get my money back for a cancelled flight. The operator would sometimes be a bit confused when I pick up, but it usually worked well and certainly beats listening to hold music for hours.

                                                                                                                                              • FredPret 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                … until Qantas deploys AI bots that can keep your AI going indefinitely!

                                                                                                                                              • tandr 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                I have pixel 7, and I think this feature is or very unstable, or cell-provider dependent. It was on my phone, then was not, then re-appeared briefly again, now it is not even in settings.

                                                                                                                                                • whartung 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                  Have your Bot call my Bot and they’ll have lunch.

                                                                                                                                                  • permo-w 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                    that is a surprisingly awesome phone feature

                                                                                                                                                    • ptman 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                      I wish it was available on my pixel, but only in US I guess.

                                                                                                                                                    • burningChrome 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                      Its kind of funny to think we've already had many of these services that were apparently really ahead of their time.

                                                                                                                                                      I remember being an outside sales rep for a local mom and pop wireless company in the late 90's, early aughts. We sold an automated "assistant" called Wildfire that would screen calls and stood as an intermediary between you can callers. She would answer, you would record your name and then it would call you on any number of devices you had entered. At one point, I had it calling three of my numbers (office and two mobile numbers) and at any time, you could just send people to voicemail. It was very similar to how many of the AI assistants work today. If I remember it was like $30/month, but as reps we got to use it for free which was really fun tinkering with it.

                                                                                                                                                      AT&T also had something like this where you could have a program they offered which would screen your calls and either connect you or you could send people directly to voicemail. It didn't have nearly the features that Wildfire had, but it was effective.

                                                                                                                                                      Obviously in the late 90's and early aughts, something like this wasn't really needed and after a few quarters, AT&T quietly stopped offering their service. Wildfire lived on until the mid aughts after being bought and then killed due to lack of adoption and use.

                                                                                                                                                      Kind of crazy these kinds of programs were pretty common before the AI assistant craze now.

                                                                                                                                                      Details about Wildfire here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildfire_Communications

                                                                                                                                                      • mxuribe 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                        I seem to vaguely recall this Wildfire brand name....Because when i first got google voice, it was really half of an acquired company...which if remember correctly was a competitor to wildfire, no? Like grandcentral or something? Anyway, yeah, when i first got google voicemail, this feature was really impressive! But, of course eventually learned that this tyoe of thing already existed in some corners :-)

                                                                                                                                                      • morkalork 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                        If they ever get clever enough to automate the menu selection, it would be funny to have an infinitely deep IVR sort of like the tar pits people build on websites to trap web crawlers.

                                                                                                                                                        • clutch89 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                          It's a great idea, and in Canada using the Koodo/Telus network you can turn on "call control" for free which does basically this, except it makes the caller enter a random number between 1-9. And you can also whitelist certain numbers like friends and family.

                                                                                                                                                          • thfuran 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                            I think I've gotten exactly one spam call since I set up an IVR like that a few years ago, and it was probably not quite daily before that.

                                                                                                                                                          • cedws 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                            Very nice to see, my grandmother was recently scammed out of a large amount of money. Luckily the bank reimbursed her.

                                                                                                                                                            Scammers are a stain on the reputation of India. You could argue it's unfair to tar an entire country with the same brush, but quite clearly rule of law isn't properly functioning over there and there's complicity in letting them do this. Same goes for Nigeria.

                                                                                                                                                            • kmeisthax 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                              Oh, believe me, Indians fucking hate the scammers, probably more than you do.

                                                                                                                                                              Jim Browning (the scambaiter who worked with O2 in this article) has successfully compromised several scam operations, gotten their physical address and other dox, and referred them to the police. The offices get raided, Jim gets some nice CCTV footage of the raid, the operators of the criminal enterprise get a nice perp walk... and then a month later the case is mysteriously dismissed with a bullshit reason about AI deepfakes and "IO" (influence operations, I presume).

                                                                                                                                                              The thing to keep in mind is that India's government is run by Modi, a Hindu ultranationalist who wants to deport all the country's Muslims to Pakistan[0]. There's a pretty straightforward pipeline from organized crime to fascism and I wouldn't be surprised if the scammers in question here are part of Modi's power base (or part of other organizations which are part of his power base).

                                                                                                                                                              The only thing I could think of to fix this would be to strategically suck people out of India through generous visas for migrants who want to live in a country with functioning[1] institutions. The thing about organized crime is that it relies on having a pool of suckers to continue joining the criminal enterprise - in other words, even the scammers are themselves being scammed. This is one of the less selfish reasons why I'm an open borders fanatic, but I also have to admit that such a policy in today's era has negative political capital.

                                                                                                                                                              [0] Which itself has money problems because it's budget gets siphoned off by their own military and they have to beg the IMF for scraps

                                                                                                                                                              [1] To be clear, India's institutions still exist, they're just mildly broken.

                                                                                                                                                              • Pikamander2 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                I'd imagine India will gradually crack down on it more over time. The tech industry there is growing massive and they surely aren't happy about being associated with scammers.

                                                                                                                                                                • primitivesuave 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                  They won't. The companies that operate these scam centers are diversified criminal enterprises run by ultra-wealthy and politically connected individuals. These people own the police, they own the politicians, and until fairly recently, they owned the voters through massive vote-buying schemes.

                                                                                                                                                                  You can get away with murder in India if you're wealthy enough (e.g. the case of Jessica Lal, murdered by a politician's son in front of at least a dozen witnesses). The egregious corruption of the INC or "Congress party" (which is ideologically progressive) over many decades has created a massive voter exodus to the conservative BJP party, the majority party in India since 2014. However, the corruption and inefficiency at all levels of civil society has remained endemic.

                                                                                                                                                                  • pnut 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                    I just googled Jessica Lal and the Wikipedia article suggests that the rich murderer was convicted and sentenced to life in prison?

                                                                                                                                                                    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jessica_Lal

                                                                                                                                                                    • primitivesuave 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                      He was indeed sentenced to life, but was inexplicably allowed to go in and out of prison during his sentence - on one occasion he was paroled for thirty days under dubious circumstances. He was eventually released on parole 4 years ago for "good behavior", and is now trying to rehabilitate his public image (along with his extremely corrupt father).

                                                                                                                                                                      • Baeocystin 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                        I mean, in that very article it talks about how he was granted probation many times, and has already been released. Doesn't seem very lifey to me.

                                                                                                                                                                  • undefined 8 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                    [deleted]
                                                                                                                                                                  • BiteCode_dev 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                    Of course, the scammers have created their own AI to call people and scam them so it's just playing catchup.

                                                                                                                                                                    It's like corporate avatars for hiring or cold call bots for sales.

                                                                                                                                                                    I'd say stick to white listed numbers, but pro phones can't do that, and they are the most prone to spam.

                                                                                                                                                                    • gorkish 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                      I always ask the robocalls to say something specific.

                                                                                                                                                                      It finally worked the other day! A robot repeated "chrysanthemum" back to me when asked. Sadly it seemed to be limited to this one single trick; as I continued my attempts to exploit it, it abruptly apologized and ended the call.

                                                                                                                                                                      Cute, but one day I am going to get lucky and a scammer is going to get absolutely wrecked.

                                                                                                                                                                      • alphan0n 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                        Chrysanthemum is also my go to. That or “You’re in a desert. You’re walking along in the sand when all of a sudden.. you look down and see a tortoise..”

                                                                                                                                                                        • eskathos 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                          "Tortoise? What's that?"

                                                                                                                                                                        • stevage 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                          Wait, what's your endgame here?

                                                                                                                                                                        • klabb3 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                          Great, the dead internet theory is being backported to landlines.

                                                                                                                                                                          • jalk 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                            So some time in the future, the Telcos will report, that 30%-50% of calls are Scammer AIs talking to Granny AIs

                                                                                                                                                                            • gitaarik 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                              It would seem to me that it's a lot easier to build an AI that acts as a non-tech-savvy granny to keep scammers busy, than one that actually successfully executes a complete scam from start to finish on a real life person.

                                                                                                                                                                            • seabass-labrax 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                              I'm imagining this is just a publicity stunt, and I'll say it's a very good one. However I can't see it being very practical. There are lots of scam calls to keep up with and LLMs and text-to-speech models are expensive to run. If they do run this in production, the costs of running hundreds of 'Daisies' will inevitably be passed onto the consumer, and worse still, if the scammers are calling in through PSTN lines or cellular this will use up our already scarce bandwidth. I've frequently had difficulty connecting through trunk lines from Belgium and Germany to numbers in Britain, and that's without a legion of AI grannies sitting on the phone!

                                                                                                                                                                              • huac 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                real-time full duplex like OpenAI GPT-4o is pretty expensive. cascaded approaches (usually about 800ms - 1 second delay) are slower and worse, but very very cheap. when I built this a year ago, I estimated the LLM + TTS + other serving costs to be less than the Twilio costs.

                                                                                                                                                                                • jackphilson 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                  which is why we need to adopt nuclear power so we run thousands of these so the odds of them picking up a bot instead of a person is overwhelmingly likely

                                                                                                                                                                                • wepple 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                  Every type of defensive tech is nothing more than driving up the cost of attack.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Doubling the dwell time for a scammer will halve their profits. That could have interesting second-order effects. Perhaps it makes it not worth it for some subset?

                                                                                                                                                                                • brap 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                  This reminds me of “shadow banning” - instead of letting the misbehaving user know they’ve been banned, and let them find a way around it, you make them believe they’re not banned and let them waste their time interacting with the system (without actually interacting with others), this makes them spend less time on actual misuse and it makes the penalty for it more expensive. Good strategy. Cruel too.

                                                                                                                                                                                  So I don’t think that this is just entertaining PR, I can see why it’s better than simply banning the scammers. Still a question of cost though.

                                                                                                                                                                                  • bityard 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                    No doubt it has been misused at some point or another, but shadow banning in the context of online communities is generally a last-resort defense against the very worst and most prolific trolls. Not someone who accidentally breaks forum etiquette one time.

                                                                                                                                                                                    A person who is shadow banned generally continues their antisocial behavior in the face of multiple warnings and reprimands. I don't see it as cruel. I see it as defending the community against those who get pleasure out of trying to wreck it. It's effective because the bannee is generally too dim to realize what has happened to them until they get bored and go away.

                                                                                                                                                                                    • BlueTemplar 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                      In regular communities, maybe, but that kind of abuse is rampant on platforms : I was shadowbanned on Reddit as a new user, and still regularly get shadowbanned in YouTube comments (seemingly if I dare to post more than one comment, or if I dare to add a link, including a timelink to the very video!)

                                                                                                                                                                                      • throwaway313374 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                        Is it effective at all though?

                                                                                                                                                                                        It's very easy to check if your posts are available by browsing them anonymously or under a second account.

                                                                                                                                                                                      • optimalsolver 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                        The next step up is "heaven banning":

                                                                                                                                                                                        https://x.com/nearcyan/status/1532076277947330561

                                                                                                                                                                                        • robertlagrant 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                          You're completely right! Genius comment.

                                                                                                                                                                                          • latexr 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                            That makes no sense. Why would you spend more money and electricity to keep trolls around longer?

                                                                                                                                                                                            • brap 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                              The longer they spend in heaven, the less they spend trolling. I’m not saying it’s worth the cost, but it’s something to consider.

                                                                                                                                                                                              • optimalsolver 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                It keeps the engagement metrics up without poisoning the discourse.

                                                                                                                                                                                          • alexjplant 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                            So it's just an AI re-implementation of the Telecrapper 2000 [1]? The original site is down but there are plenty of YouTube videos [2] of it still available.

                                                                                                                                                                                            [1] https://hackaday.com/2005/09/08/telecrapper-2000/

                                                                                                                                                                                            [2] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QlK_zHisT_A

                                                                                                                                                                                            • bityard 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                              That's pretty hilarious. Amazing what you can do with just a well-crafted pre-recorded script.

                                                                                                                                                                                              There are some other Youtube videos where a guy writes these ChatGPT personalities, but those aren't as entertaining because the AI is basically just blurting out random thoughts rather than engaging in an actual conversation.

                                                                                                                                                                                            • milleramp 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                              Jolly Roger has been doing this for a while, the example phone calls are hilarious. https://youtube.com/@jollyrogertelephone?si=sB3Tiql0wsUlXldo

                                                                                                                                                                                              • markgoho 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                yes!

                                                                                                                                                                                              • burger_moon 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                I applied for a mortgage today through my bank. Before the automated “next steps” email could hit my inbox my phone was already ringing and ringing and ringing. About 10 minutes straight of automated spam callers that are watching who knows what public ledger on now.

                                                                                                                                                                                                I guess it pretty much means retiring this number next year. I’ve inly had the number a little over a year and the spam has slowly crept up despite best efforts to give fake numbers where possible.

                                                                                                                                                                                                • Pikamander2 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                  We accidentally registered a domain once without the privacy setting enabled and proceeded to get dozens of spam/scam calls about it over the next few months.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Scoundreller 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Do registrars verify the numbers?

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Might put the number of someone I don’t like first; then flip the privacy setting and fix the number

                                                                                                                                                                                                • darkr 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Great PR move, but surely better to invest in more basic security measures supported by their app (chain of trust, verified callers/messaging etc). Instead their app is primarily a react native sales tool. Part of the reason that o2 was so affected by scammers calling from south Asian call centres with “the latest offers” was because they used to do exactly this with their customers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  • ddtaylor 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                    To be clear while I don't enjoy the idea of receiving low-effort sales calls, I do think that real scammers are different. Real scammers don't have a business, aren't willing to go to court, etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  • rickcarlino 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                    This reminds me of Dead Internet Theory. We have a phone network of AI scammers endlessly calling AI counter scammers. What a time to be alive.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    • gorkish 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Boy howdy, wait until you hear how rural phone companies make money.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      There is one simple and easy solution to this mess, but good luck getting traction on it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    • scoot 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I was a little surprise to read that they're using speech-to-text and text-to-speech rather than an end-to-end speech model. Won't that horrible latency? (I guess the old-person persona disguises it a little...)

                                                                                                                                                                                                      • robust-cactus 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Another solution - drop numeric phone numbers all together and switch to alphanumeric or verified contact only. With numeric, sequential phone numbers you can just robocall all the numbers until you find a victim. Making the search space significantly larger should solve that attack vector. Of course, this will effectively be the same as transitioning from IPv4 to v6 - with all the same associated pain

                                                                                                                                                                                                        It'll help with so many things: - in contact syncing systems you can't rainbow table your way to decrypting numbers - numbers can be permanently burned once they're released or deemed as spam. This means every service could ban spammers safely without fear of burning a real user. - people could more easily have alt numbers, non-voip numbers for untrusted services.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        • hannofcart 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                          I don't think the scammers are using sequential iteration over numbers. I suppose it's more efficient to just call numbers exposed in a data breach.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Your suggestion won't help circumvent that. I think.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          • robust-cactus 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Fair, but you could throw away numbers more easily in this situation due to data breaches. You could also "update trusted parties" with a new improved scheme overall.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        • LlamaTrauma 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Instating an AI model as "Head of Scammer Relations" is hilarious. I think the point here is to collect the phone numbers of scam call centers and have Daisy call them so that scammers waste time talking to it rather than a victim.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          • Veen 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Having dealt with O2's support line, I wouldn't be surprised to discover they'd deployed a time-wasting AI there too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            • ChrisMarshallNY 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                              Good on them!

                                                                                                                                                                                                              > and one in five (22%) experiencing a fraud attempt every single week

                                                                                                                                                                                                              That seems low. I guess they mean phone calls only.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              I get -no exaggeration- several hundred spam mails a day (and these are the ones that made it past the first line defense). I also get 10 or more scam texts.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              Some of the phising emails that I get, are frighteningly realistic (but invariably seem to have at least one speling eror in them).

                                                                                                                                                                                                              If folks live in a normal suburban development, they are highly unlikely to get several hundred crooks, knocking on their door, every day, but being on the Internet, means exactly that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              The crooks only need to land you once, you have to have a perfect record, avoiding them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              • NitpickLawyer 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I get -no exaggeration- several hundred spam mails a day

                                                                                                                                                                                                                I've seen no legit spam e-mail in years, on my very old, very used, "forums and other logins I don't care about", 2005 gmail address. What provider are you using?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                • ChrisMarshallNY 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  mac.com.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have an OG address that was registered about five minutes after Steve introduced the service.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Network Solutions sold it to spammers, and the rest is history.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Also, a couple other of my emails (and phone numbers) are associated with businesses, so are sort of public record (not really, but everyone finds out, anyway).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • undefined 8 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    [deleted]
                                                                                                                                                                                                              • random3 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                So we should all be relieved now because scammers can't train and deploy AI models but old people will surely adopt them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                • Scarjit 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I can already see AI scammers phoning AI anti-scam agents.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • pants2 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    AIs talking to AIs... at the end of the day the real winner is always Nvidia

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • optimalsolver 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nvidia should change their brand logo to a shovel.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • ryandrake 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Whenever I go home to visit my elderly parents, I'm amazed at how many scam calls they get. Like at least 4 or 5 an hour. And they pick up each one because they're from a time when you simply pick up your phone when it rings, and they won't change their habits.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    It's long past time that phone calls should stop being synchronous and immediate. They are only this way because historic landlines were synchronous and immediate, and nobody changed it. This functionality should be culturally unacceptable in 2024.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Imagine if the concept of a land line never existed. Then, a startup came out with an app that: 1. allowed random people to cause your handheld device to stop what it was doing and immediately ring and vibrate and pop up a dialog over whatever app was active, 2. when you pushed a button, an instant two way audio channel was initiated, and 3. they could do all this without any authentication whatsoever--just needing to know a non-secret 10 digit number. This kind of app would fail every App Store guideline, and it would be laughed out of the ecosystem as unacceptable to end users. But in reality, it's "The Phone App" that comes pre-installed on your damn phone!! Insane that this kind of application is acceptable.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • stewx 8 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • vitiral 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It's the year 2035. 80% of all energy is consumed by AI scammers talking on the phone with AI Grammas.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • gsuuon 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I default to never answering now. Every time I feel like it might be an actual person on the other end and risk answering, it has turned out to be a scammer or spam call. Not sure why governments don't do more against them - scam and spam callers have destroyed phone communication.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • pnw 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I see a large number of spam emails with the "fake invoice" scam, and I've often thought an AI powered voice bot could really waste the time of the scammers call center and save some senior citizens money and grief. Has anyone developed an open source equivalent?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • JasserInicide 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              If this is just a PR stunt, imagine what they're cooking up behind the scenes: AI reps to answer actual customer calls. No more paying a horde of $10/hr meat slaves in some call center! You know some execs creamed themselves over this already.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • froglets 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Have you been to an AI drive through yet?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • ynoxinul 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Reminded me of Lenny and he didn't even need any AI to waste a lot of scammers' time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • Taylor_OD 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I remember setting up Lenny and forwarding calls I used to get to him while commuting on the bus early in my career. It was a lot of fun to listen to scammers start to freak out when they realized what was happening.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • overcast 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Our record at the office was 47 minutes. FORTY SEVEN MINUTES keeping a scammer on the phone till they hung up. We never laughed so much at work in all of twenty years. :D

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • deadlast2 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Maybe Daisy has become sentient and has taken over all operations at 02. No one noticed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • robertlagrant 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      KitBoga, scam baiter par excellence, did this in 2021[0].

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/technology-56458267

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • ycombinator_acc 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Isn't text-to-speech very expensive? Last time I checked, Eleven Labs, the most natural-sounding TTS provider, were charging insane amounts per token. Wasting so much on scammers sounds unsustainable and just silly.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • SubiculumCode 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          So, scammers start using these things too (obviously), and so AI will be trying to scam AI, then they'll be like "we need to detect when our bots are talking to a bot, so they can exit the call sooner." GANWAR

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • sangnoir 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Remember: O2 gets paid for incoming international calls by the minute

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • staticshock 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Scammers can jam this by reporting legitimate phone numbers as scam numbers, no?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • jonplackett 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I wish they would have a number I can cal to speak to her. That would be fun

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • vundercind 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I could try to walk it through fixing its network settings in Windows 98. Really re-live my telecom tech support days.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • jonplackett 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I could relive my teenage years where my grand dad would call up 2 x per week so I could help him set the clock on his microwave.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • scoot 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I was thinking the same, but so that I can conf-call unknown or obviously suspect numbers to it, and listen to the hilarity unfold in real-time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • flir 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Follow-up idea, probably silly:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Robogranny Olympics. Allow people to submit their own bots, Micromouse/koth.org/Battlecode-style. Bots are run on random phone numbers for several weeks, and are ranked on average call length (total time/num calls). The robot that can keep spammers on the line the longest wins the prize.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  A condition of submission is that the bot code and weights are published (not open sourced, just published). Competition is repeated yearly.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • jusonchan81 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I wonder when will the scammer also create an AI scammer.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Joke aside, is this going to be cost effective? What would it cost to keep a scammer on the phone for an hour? Who will pay this bill?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • jliptzin 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Seems stupid to publicly announce this product so that scammers are now aware of it? Also what happens when scammers start using AIs of their own to do the scamming?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • notahacker 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If scammers are wondering if a confused little old lady who's the first person to listen to them all day is actually an AI programmed to be nice that's... probably not a bad thing

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • __MatrixMan__ 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This scratches an itch, sure, but the people manning the phones for a scammer are likely to be in a pretty desperate situation themselves. They may or may not be free to leave, etc. I'd like to find a way to help them roll over on their bosses and find their way to something more productive, rather than just making their bosses madder at them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • kombookcha 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >I'd like to find a way to help them roll over on their bosses

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          They're unlikely to do this, because scam call centers are typically a branch of local organized crime syndicates. There is nowhere for them to roll, because their boss' boss also pays a bunch of crooked cops and whatnot.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The bottom rung guys doing the actual calling aren't gangsters, but further up the organization they are, so attempting to fuck with the organization from the bottom will not end well for you if you live in that area and lack protection.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • ortusdux 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I really enjoy the Google Pixel exclusive call screener.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          https://youtu.be/V2IyttWHJfs?si=mreFXk6h-yDAJ3D7&t=50

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I've had a few friends get new numbers, and seeing "Hey it's your Aunt, I got a new phone" live transcribed on the screen has come in handy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • aantix 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            What's the best API for real-time conversations?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Strangely, I looked at OpenAI's offering.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Despite it being crazy expensive, they also didn't offer a reference implementation anywhere close to the functionality that is demo'ed in the regular ChatGPT app.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nobody seems to get the interruptions correct - people are doing all sorts of weak workarounds like push-to-talk, etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • outside1234 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Or we could just make these calls illegal?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • notahacker 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                They are. Sometimes people continue to do things even though they're illegal

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • Tepix 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well then make it easy to catch the perpetrators.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • Tepix 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Right. These scam calls are not a god-given problem. Some countries do not have them in any significant amount. I suspect there is greed involved (political or corporate) that prevents this problem from getting solved.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • yesthisiswes 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  My father setup his own solution for robocalls. If the phone rings more than three times it kicks the call to the fax machine. Apparently fax lines are supposed to be kept clear because of legal reasons? All I know is half the time I call I get a dialup sound as my call gets routed to the fax machine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • christophilus 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    This may be the best use case for AI yet.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • mkrishnan 8 months ago

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • hatmanstack 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This feels more like misery porn disguised as a crusade to 'protect' the vulnerable. I’m not suggesting we make it easier for people to get scammed, but intentionally engaging seems like a recipe for a harsher clap back. Education > Escalation.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • James_K 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sadly, many scam callers are actually slaves in Myanmar. Those unable to detect this may face physical punishments, or worse. Not that I'm supporting the practice of scamming, but this kind of scam prevention is also morally dubious.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • silexia 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If spammers like this are in another country, their country should be cut off from the global phone and internet system or we should simply drop bombs on their call centers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • xanderlewis 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Weird how she doesn’t sound like an old lady. Just hearing the voice, she sounds about 45.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • jameson 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              "I got all the time in the world" I never felt that so literal and scary

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • arethuza 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                What I find amusing is that scammers have my phone number but my wife's name - so I get random calls where they say "Can I speak to Ms Arethuza" and I say "No" and end the call.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • alecco 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Weird. AFAIK nowadays the contacts are bought from lists out of online orders where your name is there. Do you shop in your wife's name?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • arethuza 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    No - she does book restaurants in my name as hers is quite complicated to spell!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • tomcam 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The "Daisy" AI sounds exactly like a female version of Bill Nighy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • kelvinjps10 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Actually the google phone as some spam blocking additional to the one in my carrier which is crap, I was using the samsung app and I was getting spam calls always, I set up google one , now I get none

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • aussieguy1234 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This goes to show how tech can be a double edged sword. Sure, AI is going to be abused by scammers, but in the never ending arms race its also going to be used against them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • ashoeafoot 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Or make every phone call cost a cent. .But then again therecis large growth potential in human hostile software abd services and defenses against that

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • mcbuilder 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Other controversies aside, this could end up being a bit of a organic Turing test, if the AI ever becomes convincing to enough scammers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • Archelaos 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Wondering when an AI passes the HN Turin test. -- Or has it already happened?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • undefined 8 months ago
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • methods21 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              As long this doesn't put Kitboga out of business.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • neycoda 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                That's great, but I can't tell who are fraudsters until after hearing what they say.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • BillLucky 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Fight AI scams with AI assistants and just let them have the conversation themselves

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • AnthonBerg 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Who Timewastes the Timewaster?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • pityJuke 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If Jim Browning is involved, it might not be terrible. Let’s see.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • scudsworth 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        cant even stand to watch (or listen to) more than 5 seconds of the obviously generated granny. i doubt even the audio will be convincing enough.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • Archelaos 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Wait until the scammers become AIs too. Thinking of a world where phone conversations between humans is the exception ...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • JSDevOps 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            They would be better sorting themselves out first rather than working on this nonsense

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • habosa 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Or Virgin/O2 could, you know, just actually block the scammers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • luispa 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                honeAI pot

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • pointy_hat 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Imagine a day when a scam bot will talk to AI granny.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • owenpalmer 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Wait till the AI scammers start calling

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • lupusreal 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Surprised there aren't any comments whining about this because the scammers are bigger victims. Usually there's at least one.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • JumpCrisscross 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > surprised there aren't any comments whining about this

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    This is called a totem.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    You’ve invented or learned a caricature to rail at which may have once been based in truth, and from time to time again approximates it, though never with the fidelity you ascribe to the original. It’s commonly done by sides in partisan polarisation, the most common being a two-mode system that pillories its picture of the other.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    If you picture the person writing the totem comment, you probably have a clear idea of what they do for a living, how they dress, et cetera. Totems are why both deification and demonisation work; they’re a hack of the human ability to visualise and project.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • lupusreal 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nah, check the archive. I have no idea how they dress, nice "totem" though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40043630

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • JumpCrisscross 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This is doubling down on “may have once been based in truth, and from time to time again approximates it.”

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Analogy: phantom pain is pain in a limb that was once there but now isn’t. The limb was real. It probably felt pain. But when a patient imagines pain after the limb is gone, that’s the diagnosis.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Those comments are real. The people, probably, too. Responding to them when they aren’t in the room is a separate matter.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • lupusreal 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          You have this notion of a visualization gimmick and have visualized me using it (ironic). In fact my game is far simpler; blithly preempt and thereby insult anybody who subscribes to a belief I consider to be misguided. For all I know they look just like me, it makes no difference.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • JumpCrisscross 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > preempt and thereby insult anybody who subscribes to a belief I consider to be misguided

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            This is the totem. You react to a misguided belief even when it’s a phantom.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            If you look at two-mode polarised discussions, you’ll find both sides talking about a totem of the other, reacting to imagined preëmptions and rarely interacting with each other. The graphs separate. As a result, the preëmptions are more imagined than real. (Both in characterisation and frequency of emergence.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Note that this is perfectly normal. Kids do it. And it’s fun. It’s also easy, since instead of reacting to anything empirical or well argued you’re constructing straw men for the purpose of taking them down.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • lupusreal 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              You have reiterated your position after I disputed it, a behavior which may be described as "doubling down". This term carries a negative connotation, and therefore proves the other person (myself) correct.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • JumpCrisscross 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > have reiterated your position

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I clarified my position. The visualisation isn't the totem per se. The representation is.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > term carries a negative connotation, and therefore proves the other person (myself) correct

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nobody said you were wrong. Correct, necessary and even germane are distinct.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • zahlman 8 months ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Several other comments ITT raise the spectre of a future where AI scammers and AI recipients are at war.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The above comments seem to me much like a simulacrum of how that might go. The comment exchange should have stopped much sooner.

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