And what are ASML and the Netherlands in general getting out of it?
The supply chain for these machines is heavily dependent on the US and the Netherlands is heavily dependent on US security guarantees, just like the rest of Europe.
These security guarantees would not be needed if the EU had it own nuclear force. The US knows that and prevents it while selling military hardware and maintaining influence. The US is also a destabilizing influence in EU relations with Russia, which were previously of the form: We buy your gas, your oligarchs buy our luxury goods, same as with Saudi Arabia.
Europe has its own nuclear forces
Also LOL @ the US being the destabilizing force with Russia.
France and the UK have nukes
https://www.icanw.org/nuclear_arsenals?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj...
UK is not even in the EU any longer and France having nukes is not an "EU nuclear force".
If France consider the EU being one of it's 'vital strategic interest', you can consider EU to have 289 nukes available. Not 290, because the first one will be used as a 'warning shot'.
The UK is still in Europe, it has a lot of interest in keeping Europe as a whole safe and defended. France is tightly integrated and dependent on the EU, being a nuclear force makes the EU as a whole a nuclear force.
Unless you believe France and the UK would leave the rest of Europe hanging to dry in case of a nuclear exchange, if you think so I'd first question why.
Saudi Arabia has less of a history of invading European countries
We were told in 2022 that the Russian army was incompetent, people had no gloves and were fighting with shovels. Probably not entirely without reason, because the Ukrainian counteroffensive in 2022 was relatively successful.
So the gas money definitely did not go to the army. Now, after the sanctions, on the other hand Russia keeps producing missiles and other things and trades with China.
By the way, Saudi Arabia does have a history of invading Yemen. Not an EU country, but a "military operation".
What exactly is your point?
You are basically saying that despite pre-2022 Russian/European gas trade revenue initial Russian military performance was poor, but since Russian combat readiness improves now (with sanctions in place), the EU might as well have continued trading? Because that is just faulty reasoning; You would need actual data here to draw any conclusions about sanction effectiveness.
the House of Saud conquered Arabia less than 100 years ago.
They don't get Nordstreamed.
Article from 2001: What ASML agreed to do to win U.S. approval of SVG merger
> VELDHOVEN, the Netherlands — To win U.S. clearance in the purchase of Silicon Valley Group Inc., officials at ASM Lithography Holding N.V. agreed to a number of restrictions and obligations aimed at protecting lens technology and maintaining operations in the United States. But the Dutch company's CEO today said many of those requirements are compatible with ASML's original goals in buying SVG.
> ASML today announced it had finally cleared U.S. review of its planned purchase of San Jose-based SVG about seven months after announcing plans to acquire the lithography supplier for $1.6 billion in stock. Completion of the merger had been stalled for several months because of concerns about U.S. national security and protection of defense-related technologies. The U.S. government agreement now clears the way for ASML to complete its takeover of SVG within the next few weeks, according to officials in Veldhoven (see today’s story).
> “Clearly any CEO would like a completely free hand, with no obligations,” said ASML chief executive officer Doug Dunn, during a conference call today following the announcement of the agreement. Dunn said a free hand was “never going to be the case with this particular merger/takeover. The U.S. government took a very strong interest in this because, in their opinion, it very clearly effected national security.”
> Topping the list of requirements in the agreement is a promise by ASML to make a “good faith effort” to sell SVG's Tinsley Laboratories subsidiary within six months of completing the acquisition of Silicon Valley Group. Tinsley's lens-polishing technology was one of the major concerns blocking ASML from finishing its purchase of SVG.
The article continues: https://www.eetimes.com/what-asml-agreed-to-do-to-win-u-s-ap...
From 1999 - https://www.eetimes.com/u-s-gives-ok-to-asml-on-euv-effort/
"U.S. Undersecretary of Energy Ernest Moniz said, “if the EUV technology proves viable, ASML has agreed to build a factory in the U.S., similar to its Netherlands facility, as well as to establish an American research and development center. The factory will supply 100 percent of all ASML's sales in the United States.”"
Minoz said ASML has “agreed to help facilitate periodic reviews among the Euclides EUV program members and U.S. manufacturers.” Euclides is a Europe-based research effort supported by the European Community and based primarily at ASML's R&D facilities in Eindhoven. “Collaborative participation on a pre-competitive basis among these leading lithography tool suppliers is the best approach for strengthening the overall technology and assuring its international acceptance,”
I would like to see what happens if Germany imposes export controls on Pfizer 20 years from now because Biontech developed the mrna vaccine sold by Pfizer.
They get to avoid sanctions and other consequences. It's not meant to be equitable.
But there are still benefits to NL since China is their adversary too.
Curious who you think uses these devices and who designs and distributes the chips.
Without the American companies not sure the benefits would be the same to the Netherlands or to ASML.
ASML gets to see the Chinese government sink the big money into rendering them obsolete, they get to see their stock implode and to shut down RND. But the Netherlands will get to see ASML pack their bags and leave. This of course besides further unpredictable retaliation from China.
We also love it when our government takes marching orders from the US.
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They don't have a choice. ASML licenses the intellectual property for EUV lithography from the US government. Therefore they follow US export control laws on EUV machines.
How did this happen? Why does the US gov own the IP of technology developed in the netherlands by a dutch company?
Key EUV research was funded by the US government, and developed at Lawrence Livermore/Berkeley Labs & Sandia national labs. The IP is owned by the US government and they created a licensing vehicle, Silicon Valley Labs, to commercialize the technology. ASML acquired licenses to these IPs with its acquisition of Silicon Valley Labs in 2001.
It’s because the US National Laboratories developed all the initial technology to enable EUV. ASML just builds the machines.
This is really a major simplification and glosses over a lot. US National laboratories were involved but certainly didn't "develop all the initial technology". This page on the ASML website gives a good overview: https://www.asml.com/en/news/stories/2022/making-euv-lab-to-...
Why would state something that is not correct. Cymer is a fully owned company by ASML.
It seems that you are confusing ownership of the company with licensing of the IP it uses.
AMD produces their own x86 under IP licensed by Intel (and vice versa).
It seems you are confusing the details and conditions of a contract never disclosed publicly, of base research, where a EU based company spent 20 years and billions of EU funds to create a workable product.
In any case if the US adrenaline fueled diplomacy, starts violating hundreds of years old borders of it's allies, respect for ambiguous IP Laws, will be pretty low in the list of priorities. :-)
> It seems you are confusing the details and conditions of a contract never disclosed publicly
The details have never been disclosed but it is well known that this agreement fell within the domain of national security and export controls.
Here's a press release [1] directly from ASML that references these export controls. Even though this PR actually relaxing DUV controls with respect to the U.S., it reaffirms that "EUV systems are also subject to license requirements."
[1]: https://www.asml.com/en/news/press-releases/2024/dutch-gover...
> The US government owns
Curious how that happened.
It's not true.
It is in the sense that the LLNL owns the EUV IP that ASML implemented, and ASML is using this IP after inheriting it from AMD+Motorola who sold off their stake in EUV LLC.
All NatLab-Private partnerships have this kind of a rider.
ASML is already starting another partnership with LLNL on next-gen EUV.
> The US government owns the intellectual property for ASML's EUV lithography.
This is false.
From the wikipedia page on EUV: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_ultraviolet_lithogra...
> To address the challenge of EUV lithography, researchers at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, and Sandia National Laboratories were funded in the 1990s to perform basic research into the technical obstacles. The results of this successful effort were disseminated via a public/private partnership Cooperative R&D Agreement (CRADA) with the invention and rights wholly owned by the US government, but licensed and distributed under approval by DOE and Congress.[3] The CRADA consisted of a consortium of private companies and the Labs, manifested as an entity called the Extreme Ultraviolet Limited Liability Company (EUV LLC).[4]
> In 2001 SVG was acquired by ASML, leaving ASML as the sole benefactor of the critical technology.
Unless the situation has changed, the IP is still owned by the US government, and is licensed to ASML through their acquisition of Silicon Valley Group.
From your own reference ( note this had 18 years of R&D by ASML ):
"By 2018, ASML succeeded in deploying the intellectual property from the EUV-LLC after several decades of developmental research, with incorporation of European-funded EUCLIDES (Extreme UV Concept Lithography Development System) and long-standing partner German optics manufacturer ZEISS and synchrotron light source supplier Oxford Instruments..."
> By 2018, ASML succeeded in deploying the intellectual property from the EUV-LLC
That explicitly says that the IP is with EUV-LLC (edit: which is of U.S. origin).
In 1998, ASML formed a European industrial R&D consortium dubbed ‘EUCLIDES’ (Extreme UV Concept Lithography Development System) with ZEISS and Oxford Instruments. Then EUCLIDES joined forces with the American EUV LLC in 1999...
"The CRADA consisted of a consortium of private companies and the Labs, manifested as an entity called the Extreme Ultraviolet Limited Liability Company (EUV LLC)."
You keep pointing out European involvement as if that somehow displaced American involvement (and thus continued U.S. control, the subject of this thread).
Again, your first quote explicitly states that EUV-LLC was American. The second quote refers to the "Labs", which in this case were the Lawrence Livermore, Sandia, and Berkeley National Laboratories.
Apple may have developed the M4 from the ground up but they still licensed the ISA from ARM.
Those early patents have likely expired.
Until china is not able to produce state-of-the-art EUV photolitographers, they will be "grounded" to produce old silicon process chips.
Or until the US invades Greenland, and will be barred by the EU of ever using ASML machines again ;-)
The US already threatened to invade the Netherlands not so long ago, worked like a charm. I'm pretty sure your scenario would be resolved just as easily
Your forgot about the ASML Machines remote disable. The SEAL Team 6 better deploy already to a location around Amsterdam....
"ASML can remotely disable chip machines if China invades Taiwan" - https://nltimes.nl/2024/05/21/asml-can-remotely-disable-chip...
I heard about total destruction, but not from ASML, from taiwan authorities.
The US isn't even willing to send troops to deal with the Houthis and now you're treating an invasion of the Netherlands as credible? Maybe you should cool it with the propaganda here.
Netherlands(ASML) or Denmark(Greenland/Ozempic)?
I think he might be thinking about the following repulsive law:
https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_...
Pretty sure the reason ASML has to comply is because they rely on American suppliers. Without those American suppliers, they wouldn't be able to build their machines.
The lithographic light source is US ip being created on US shores. If they do that it will be the last EUV machine ASML will make in the EU.
Hell i would bet ASML will move to US than stay in EU, if the US says move to the US and we will allow you to do business with China again.
Also it looks like China has multiple EUV tracks on going from SSMB to that tin based EUV that ASML works with.
The lithographic light source used in ASML EUV lithography systems is based on intellectual property developed by Cymer, a company that....drum roll...ASML acquired in 2013.
Is EUV the only way? Isn't there a much slower technique with laser engraving, but which they may scale in some other way?
https://www.asianometry.com/p/euv-lithography-but-with-a-fre...
EUV is all about the laser. To create the small transistors of 4nm for example, either lithography or some other laser tech, you need to be able to shine a pure light on them of small enough wavelength. EUV is the smallest we can create thus far.
It would be really interesting if in order to compete and not being able to get anywhere with photolithography if they come up with some other material to make processors or something else. Silicon is the thing that has been worked on and billions have been spent on it over decades. Now with chinese government as well private companies spending billions on a break through we might get something out of left field where private companies would not have been willing to invest in. As they say competition/war speeds up innovation.