• pdonis 22 minutes ago

    This is what comes of trying to define binary, all-or-nothing categories in a world of continuous variation. Any sharp boundary you try to draw between "life" and "death" is going to have exceptions. Making heavy weather out of this, instead of recognizing "life" and "death" as approximate categories that are useful for many purposes but can break down at the edges, is just muddled thinking.

    • justonceokay 21 minutes ago

      Sounds like most of philosophy

      • pdonis 19 minutes ago

        I agree. I think it's telling that Bertrand Russell's History of Western Philosophy is basically entirely about how all those philosophers peddled nonsense masquerading as deep thinking. For example, here's his money quote about Kant:

        "Hume, with his criticism of the concept of causality, awakened him from his dogmatic slumbers--so at least he says, but the awakening was only temporary, and he soon invented a soporific which enabled him to sleep again."

    • ggm 3 days ago

      At some level, if you are capable of being revived, I think your death was prematurely reported, defined by being revived. But, if you are not revived from a quiescent state, now or into the future, is there a functional difference between being quiescent, and being dead?

      Down at the viral level, if they crystallise, they're stable. If they managed to get into rock in a crystallised state, how long would they remain stable? Do we define viruses as "not alive" now? or prions? or mitochondria?

      • franze 3 hours ago

        In my understanding, viruses are not alive, they are information gone wrong (for the recipient).

        • tejtm 2 hours ago

          from another understanding, all life is just virus that stumbled on this one weird self replicating trick.

          • otikik 2 hours ago

            The weird trick that polynucleotides don’t want you to know!

          • paulddraper 2 hours ago

            Yes, canonically viruses are not alive.

            Though they are close.

        • verisimi 2 hours ago

          Why wouldn't seeds also be considered in the same category?

          Seeds also do not change or exhibit life, and can remain in that state for years, even centuries. But then, with water, they start to grow.

          Could it not be considered the same mechanism, except that as these organisms are simpler than seeds and retain their shape (ie do not grow and change) and it is possible for these microscopic creatures to revert to the initial 'seed state' then animated life repeatedly?

          • eh_why_not 2 hours ago

            Seeds were also the first thing that came to my mind.

            I've always found it fascinating that I could plant many spice seeds (e.g. mustard) as long as their container said "not irradiated", and they would sprout and grow just fine, several years after buying them. I.e. they are still technically alive, and can stay as such for many years, which is just amazing life resilience.

            That said,

            > ...except that as these organisms are simpler than seeds...

            I wouldn't say any animal that can move around to be simpler than seeds. IMHO by any definition animals are a big jump up in complexity over plants.

            • falcor84 26 minutes ago

              Plants in general have much larger genomes than animals, and that's clearly a definition of complexity.

            • oulipo 2 hours ago

              Well, on any timescale, even rocks are alive. We're made out of star dust. Life is everything, it's just on different timescales, one long continuity

            • suzzer99 2 hours ago

              Is this different than wood frogs, whose heart freezes and stops beating until it thaws again?

              • lo_zamoyski an hour ago

                “Philosophers are still grappling with the idea that life and death may not be the only states of being.”

                Death isn’t a state of being. It is the absence of being. When something dies, it ceases to be. It loses its identity as the thing it was. That’s why, strictly speaking, when something dies, what we are left with is not a body, as only a living thing is or has a body, but the remains of what was once alive. So, in the case of rotifers, if they are alive, either they are hibernating or suspended, or reanimation really is the instantiation of a new rotifer. I am curious what kind of metaphysics these philosophers are leaning into, or why “living thing” entails the actual function of respiration, metabolism, etc. and not just the potential for these things, for example. A rock has no potential for these, but a desiccated rotifer does. (Modern philosophy has a problem dealing with potentiality, so this is not necessarily surprising.)

                “At the time, fear of excommunication or condemnation by the Roman Catholic Church for publishing scientific observations that challenged Church doctrine impacted communication about new scientific findings.”

                The perennial boogeyman of the Enlightenment. Publishing scientific findings did not get you excommunicated. Indeed, fundamental to Catholicism is the recognition that reason and faith cannot contradict. If a scientific finding could or would authentically contradict Catholic doctrine, then Catholicism would be undermined and there would be no meaning to excommunication. (Some will point to the punishment of Giordano Bruno, but he wasn’t charged for his scientific findings —— he was a crackpot —— but for his heretical theology. Others will bring up Galileo, but again, he wasn’t excommunicated and the whole affair concerned a decades-long conflict of a personal or political nature that Galileo himself enjoyed provoking and which ended with a cozy house arrest in his old age at a time when Protestants were burning witches in Northern Europe.) A tiresome cliche. Frankly, I’m not sure how rehydrated rotifers and tardigrades are supposed to threaten Catholic doctrine. Because someone used the word “resurrection”? So what? Sloppy thinking.

                • falcor84 21 minutes ago

                  > Death isn’t a state of being. It is the absence of being. When something dies, it ceases to be. It loses its identity as the thing it was.

                  How does that fit with clinical death followed by resuscitation in humans? At what point in time does a human cease to exist?

                  • Detrytus 9 minutes ago

                    Well, if they were able to successfully resuscitate you that means that you weren't truly dead.

                  • lisper 33 minutes ago

                    > Giordano Bruno ... was a crackpot

                    Yeah. He though the earth revolved around the sun. Crazy, right?