F9 truly has no business being this good. Their previous video [1], about hub-center steering, has an absolutely fantastic oner where Ryan gets heckled by not one but two kids on scooters passing by, and still manages to finish the 3 minute take discussing path dependence and fitting a Robert Frost poem into a motorcycle review video. That segment starts around minute 7.
Also Italjet popping into the comments to say they're still around.
Yeah, those heckles are added in post IMHO. Microphones don't work that way.
It’s the same voice for both kids, so yes, but doesn’t mean he didn’t get heckled.
What a pro :)
I've come off two motorbikes in the UK. On the first occasion I wore a leather jacket, on the second I had a synthetic jacket on (because it was more comfortable in hot weather).
Both were completely safe. On both occasions I slid along the tarmac for about 10-15 meters, I was travelling at around 30-40 mph. I still wear the same leather jacket 30 years later (not for riding) but the synthetic jacket was a right-off.
On both occasions I really smacked my head: don't mess about with sub-standard crash helmets.
So even though leather is better, we're not racing the TT, we're just going from A-B and if you want to wear synthetic you'll be fine at normal speeds. So if you can't wear leather, for whatever reason, don't let that stop you.
Same thing here. Slid on black ice in the north-east USA winter. Big -big- hit to the side of the helmet, road-slide for 100 feet and got up with a bruised ego.
I'd add 1 point for the pads, shoulder elbow and back for impact. Mine happen to be `D3o` and are comfortable
* write-off, not right-off.
Forgive me. I've banged my head a few times.
This summer I got into electric scooter riding, and along with that I have been interested in finding appropriate gear for my riding. My go-to so far has been to wear a fairly cheap half helmet that I used to wear longboarding, and a pair of well-padded cycling gloves. Wearing more protection sounds nice, but: at the speeds I'm going < 20 mph / 30 kph, and impact protection (from cars) is more important than sliding to me, and I'd also like things that are easy to get on and off and carry around at my destination.
I've been thinking about getting a nice, full face helmet (helmets marketed for mountain biking seem like a good fit), but they seem like a pain to deal with at my destination. A lot of times I'll just loop my current helmet on my scooter completely unlocked, because it's cheap enough that I'm not really worried about it being stolen. The full face helmets I have been looking at are an order of magnitude more expensive though, and I wouldn't really feel comfortable just leaving it unlocked by my scooter. Does anyone have any recommendations on this? Or recommendations on other appropriate safety gear for my kind of riding?
Vespa scooters are awesome because they have a huge storage compartment under the seat where you would store things like helmets and gear.
The full-face mountain bike helmets sound exactly the ticket, and would protect your face from abrasion if you have an unexpected rapid dismount.
I used to use a small wire cord and padlock that you can store wrapped up tightly onboard. You're never going stop someone determined to get your old lid you just want to prevent opportunists and not be too cumbersome about it otherwise you won't actually do it.
I will say I have heard enough stories about 5k+ electric bikes getting scooped that I'd only ever store one behind locked doors rather than buying a huge bike lock setup.
Locking the helmet to the scooter with a cable definitely sounds like an interesting option! I'll have to look more into that. Unfortunately I can't store gear under the seat on my scooter because it is a standing scooter :D
I'm actually not too worried about the scooter itself being stolen - I have two kryptonite locks, one of which includes an insurance policy covering the vehicle from theft if it is taken by cutting the lock. Also for long term storage (like in the bike room at my apt) I remove the battery, which I believe is another layer of theft deterrence.
Getting a motorcycle license was a very good thing I've done for my life. Cruising on long roads, beautiful views, wild camping and meeting other people in a like-minded community. It really heals your mind and body.
But obviously it comes with higher risk as you are more exposed and higher demands on your abilities. And good gear can help, but if it is not combined with training and of course a sound attitude, you may sooner or later find yourself in an undesirable situation.
Go to refresher courses. I do it every year to update myself and get an idea of my current limits. It really helps.
To see what I meant about attitude, just go on Instagram and check for motorcycle reels, you'll see soo many examples of how to not act in traffic or what to do on a motorcycle.
> but if it is not combined with training and of course a sound attitude, you may sooner or later find yourself in an undesirable situation.
I ride motorcycles, so this is not a argument against it, but even with all the best safety gear and perfect habits you’re still significantly more likely to die in an accident compared to a motorcycle per mile driven.
"Go to refresher courses. I do it every year to update myself and get an idea of my current limits. It really helps."
I'll preface this by saying I love motorcycles but haven't been on one for decades.
As a driver of four-wheeled vehicles, the biggest problem I have with motorcycles is seeing them. Fortunately, I've never had an accident with a motorcycle but have had some near misses. All of those were because (a) I did not see the rider and (b) they were in positions where I did not expect them to be—on my wrong side, quickly switching lanes seemingly appearing out of nowhere, etc.
Whilst hardly in that league, I experienced an incident only three days ago that illustrates the point. At a shopping centre on a busy road I found a parking spot tight enough to require multiple maneuvers to park. When about to leave a motorcyclist pulled in behind me without me being aware of it (I was arranging shopping stuff so it wouldn't go everywhere when vehicle was in motion and there was no noise to indicate his presence).
He wasn't there when I got in the vehicle and I couldn't see his motorcycle both from my rear vision and side mirrors. I reversed slowly and felt a resistance and stopped immediately (I touched so gently there was no noise—and not even a scratch to show). (He wasn't on the motorcycle or I definitely would have seen him.)
What this motorcyclist did was to sneak into an illegal parking space so small that he effectively blocked my exit, I could not leave before he did. Sure, I wasn't really inconvenienced as he was delivering something to one of the businesses so he wasn't long.
Motorcycles offer conviences other vehicles do not, here being able to park in a small space. Motorcyclists get used to such conviences without realizing that other motorists might not be aware of them. For example, motorcycles allow for easy maneuverability which tempts riders to make illegal maneuvers that car drivers wouldn't even consider doing in the same circumstance. If the last thing on a car driver's mind is an unexpected maneuver by a motorcycle then it doesn't bode well for its rider.
From my experience, many motorcyclists drive from their perspective and not that of four-wheeled driver's. It's why I don't own a motorcycle, if I did then before long I'd be in motorcyclist thinking mode, and that'd be damned dangerous for my health.
I think that motorcycle and e-bike safety can be greatly enhanced by never doing things a car couldn't do.
Always stay in the middle of the lane (unless you need to avoid a pothole), never overtake unless a car would have space to overtake, never enter an intersection alongside a car in the same lane.
On a bike, you also have the option of behaving like a pedestrian (cycle on the sidewalk slowly) occasionally.
If you don't do this, it's only a matter of time before a car hits you because it didn't expect a vehicle or pedestrian doing what you are doing.
"Always stay in the middle of the lane"
Usually the middle is more slick from oil drips and contains more debris. That's why most people ride in one of the tire tracks from the cars.
It's also the best place to be to maximize damage if you happen to rear ended. It's also illegal where I live (edit: for specifically e-bikes).
I was coming home from work on my bike very late a few years ago, and I was on the side of the lane where your car tire would be -- not in the center. It was a good thing, too, because there was a full size ladder in the road, lined up exactly in the direction of traffic. Cars could safely drive 'over' it. I missed it by maybe a foot. If I were in middle of the lane, I would have taken a serious spill.
The middle of the lane is where cars drip years of oil and coolant.
I love the idea but our roads almost worldwide are cursed with ever-present cars which do not cars about anything else. I've heard lots of and lots of near-misses, accidents and bullshit interactions between bikes/motorbikes and cars.
I just finished reading a travelogue about the dude who cycled around the world in 1800s. Sure, one could do it today but the roads he was riding on were almost empty, now you would have to be cautious every time, since 1 asshole and you're out.
> our roads almost worldwide are cursed with ever-present cars which do not cars about anything else
Kind of feel like you're over-generalizing here. Where I live, there is almost more motorbikes than cars a lot of the time, which considering the rush hour traffic, kind of makes sense as most people don't wanna get stuck in those queues. Of course, there are accidents and near-misses (almost by definition, since those on motorbikes tend to go between car lanes), but it's not like there is a 99% chance of you dying every time you use a motorbike.
I think it depends a lot on how used to motorbikes the car drivers are. Since I live in a place where there is a bunch of them always (and cyclists!), I feel like most of us pay attention to where they could show up. Compare that to countries where motorbiking isn't as popular, I could understand how it's more risky to go with the motorbike as the car-ists aren't as used to them appearing wherever.
My doctor buddy told of a room in the hospital called the Cabbage Patch, full of braindead people who absolutely will die but can’t be let to die yet. Who is that room full of?
Consider that the fatality rate is roughly 30 times higher per mile for motorcycles vs cars.
I fully understand the freedom of the open road riding on a metal stallion - I’ve genuinely never felt anything else like it.
But it’s really god damn dangerous. Let’s not kid ourselves.
I love motorcycles and it's years since I've been on one. Despite their convience and other virtues I won't own one as I reckon I'm not competent enough to drive one safety—despite having an excellent safety record with four-wheeled vehicles.
Agreed, they're 'god damn dangerous' but where does that '30 times' figure come from? Where I am the generally accepted figure is seven times (or it was when I heard the figure a while ago).
Edit: for years I've thought that if motorcycles were a new invention they'd never be licensed these days. That they still are is historical legacy upheld by riders and the industry that makes the machines.
> I'm not competent enough to drive one safety
Underestimating your abilities in any vehicle is a good way to stay safe. In my encounters with motorcycles in traffic, as pedestrian, cyclist, or driver, even in those short few seconds while our paths cross, the motorcyclists almost always put themselves in some dangerous situation (cyclists do it even more often I'd say, but at lower speeds).
Every time I talk about this to acquaintances who ride they explain that "I do this all the time but it's fine because I know what I'm doing". Everyone is an above average driver or rider but drivers have a metal box filled with airbags. Motorcycle riders often play Russian roulette with 5 bullets in. Blaming another for when your luck finally runs out in on par with the belief most hold that they are above average.
> Consider that the fatality rate is roughly 30 times higher per mile for motorcycles vs cars.
I guess it's worth asking, what country? In Spain, I think it's closer to ~10x, probably because we're very used to motorcycles driving all around us all the time. But still, riskier, no doubt.
I'm guessing that numbers come from the US in some way or similar? Watching dashcam footage sometimes, I keep seeing people riding motorbikes in the US without helmets, something I almost never seen in Spanish traffic, I can only recall seeing that once in my life, and it's really uncommon to ride a bike without a helmet here.
> But it’s really god damn dangerous. Let’s not kid ourselves.
Agree, I'm not trying to convince anyone of otherwise. But lets have nuance as well, riding a motorcycle isn't the same everywhere, especially where motorcycles are really, really commonplace in daily traffic.
> I guess it's worth asking, what country? In Spain, I think it's closer to ~10x
From what I've been able to gather, it looks to be closer to 20-23x on a per kilometer basis.
If you factor in rider error and rider behaviour the rates are much closer.
It's just that most riders can't ride worth a damn, 95% of the riding information on the internet is dangerously wrong, and most of us also often ride recklessly because we're on a motorcycle to have fun in the first place.
There was literally 1/5th as many people on earth in 1900 as there were today. Of course the roads were empty. Even if you compare to 75yr ago there's been a doubling of population in many countries.
"There was literally 1/5th as many people on earth in 1900 as there were today. Of course the roads were empty."
We're there 1/5 the number of roads back then? Number of people might not be the best measure of density. Number of people in a specific walkable/short horse rideable location, such as a city would.
I think the bigger thing is that trains were the main mode of distance travel on land and very few people traveled more than 50 miles from home in their life.
>We're there 1/5 the number of roads back then?
Probably more like 1/2 or 3/4 depending on how you want to count dead end office park and residential subdivision roads of which there are many.
Pretty much every road in the US and Europe that isn't in the above category or a purpose built highway existed in 1900, and likely 1850 if you're looking at europe or the american northeast.
Obviously size and quality was lesser, many times they weren't even paved. But they existed because they were the roads between towns and points of interest.
If you're really worried about it you could buy an airbag.
FortNine on motorcycle airbags: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2jZryt607U
I've done MX (Yamaha YZ 250 two strokes: a monster), enduro (big mono-cylinder) and road driving on a variety of motorbikes. Road driving is by very far the most dangerous of them all.
I just quit about 15 years ago.
Now I'm a petrolhead at heart so I still enjoy scenic roads but with a car. It's much safer.
> Now I'm a petrolhead at heart so I still enjoy scenic roads but with a car. It's much safer.
I've tried it in a car, but it's not the same. For me, it's not even 1/10th of the experience of being on a bike. It's like all the soul has been sucked out of it. I might as well be in a minivan on the freeway for all the joy it gives me.
I'm not riding at the moment due to an unrelated (incomplete) spinal cord injury and some long term issues relating to that, and so i've been trying it in a car, and I even bought a "fun" car thinking it would help. But it just feels so...meh that i've largely just given it up full stop and am going to just sell the car.
I'd been riding since I was five years old, I dont think anything will ever touch it for me honestly. It was my zen place, the place I was truely happiest and at peace. It's been the biggest loss for me since my injury.
There is still a chance I could one day return to riding, so i've kept the bike (a 2012 BMW F800GS) out of sheer hope, but I must admit that it's likely by the time I can physically, I may no longer be mentally capable of the return.
Perhaps for your selfish self. On the behalf of all hikers and cyclists, and even people living in the city who have to bear with your awful noise, f*ck all motorcyclists
You're probably on the wrong side of history. As society gets wealthier fancy toys like motorcycles proliferate and more people have a stake in being able to use them.
I think the way the flood of Side by Sides onto the market gave enough of the public an interest in off road motoring to overwhelm the "hikers only" advocates decades old tactic of variously allying with different groups to get the others kicked out is highly illustrative here.
When motorcycles are commonly electric and require basically no maintenance and can simply be turned on in the spring year after year the barrier to entry is gonna drop even further and you're really gonna be up shit creek.
“Fancy toys like motorcycles” - looks like you’ve never been to less developed countries where motorcycles swarm not because they are fancy but because they are cheap. Also tend to be driven by people with no training or concept of safety (whole families on a tiny scooter). Truly a sight to behold.
What are you talking about? My bike is quieter than most cars.
How about not generalising?
I love FortNine, they always manage to be both funny and informative at the same time. And the way they do really long takes in their videos is really cool. Even the segment about the sponsors is well integrated into the video.
The first video I saw from them was about the different motorcycle engine types: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOTz0Ol8fLA
One of their latest videos (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpVMsqSW6pk) contained a teaser about a documentary they're going to release in December: around the world in 17 days. Can't wait to see it.
In my experience, working with plastic surgery offices will certainly impact your desire to get a motorcycle. Wear helmets and gear up, everyone.
Also this is a truly well done video. Entertaining, week executed, witty dialogue.
I would love to get a motorbike - I enjoy cycling and love speed - but I've had three people in my wider circle of friends suffer life-changing injuries while riding motorbikes, including one just before his wedding that they had to cancel because he was in hospital. They were all careful riders too, the incidents being caused by distracted / aggressive drivers. The odds just don't stack up for me.
Go offroad. For me, after 20 years on motorcycles, it is more interesting to cross the mountains than to cross the continent on 2 wheels and I did both, several times. I ride on the road only when needed, when I want to have fun I leave the asphalt. On a bicycle it is even more clear: I never liked riding on roads, I used to race amateur XC competitions for ~ 10 years. As much fun as it can be.
> They were all careful riders too, the incidents being caused by distracted / aggressive drivers.
I'm not sure how true that is, even when the cause is distracted/aggressive drivers, unless the drivers actually hunted them and collided with them on purpose. Defensive driving is a thing for motorcycle drivers too, and if you take care you'll avoid even distracted/aggressive drivers too.
With that said, it of course isn't risk free, I think in my country (Spain, lots of motorcycles in/around the cities/towns), just about 60% of those who drive motorcycles have never been in any accident ever[0], and that's including very dumb ("average") people so if you're more careful than the average driver, I'm sure you could get those odds to stack in your favor.
- [0] https://www.dgt.es/export/sites/web-DGT/.galleries/downloads... Table 59. "ACCIDENTALIDAD"
> I'm not sure how true that is, even when the cause is distracted/aggressive drivers
Very.
It's possible to make no mistake and still lose.
My wife got hit-and-run when bicycling to work and she's exceeding careful and defensive in her riding.
Her carefulness is probably what allowed her to catch a glimpse of the car in the corner of her eye and swerve at the last minute to not be caught head-on by the car and sent flying hundreds of meters away.
She's "lucky" to even have made it, suffering debilitating neck pain every day and night, abated only by roughly a half through invasive surgery, a pain she will have to endure for the rest of her life which at the current rate of life expectancy is the next fifty years.
Meanwhile the distracted and hurried driver who didn't bother to check around their A pillar blind spot drove away scot-free.
That's one example. I have many such stories of cyclist and biker friends alike, many of which don't ever ride between lanes.
> It's possible to make no mistake and still lose.
Sure, no doubt about that. But again, if people (60% of the riders in my case) manage to never be in an accident, and that's including a wide range of people, then surely the odds are greater of never being in an accident if you're careful.
Still, sucks she had that experience. But it's important to realize that for every accident, there are thousands of people riding every day without a single accident in their life. But of course it's harder to think about that when you had someone in a accident and that person is close to you, I understand that.
I don't think anyone's disputing that being careful increases your odds of avoiding accidents.
Instead what I wanted to call out is that even if infinitely careful and drive defensively without fail you can still get into an accident, and you don't need to be hunted down or intentionally collided into+.
Ultimately at a large enough scale it's all about odds, and it takes but one occurrence to go from "I've been fine so far" to "my life is upended".
And like all statistical things, with a low enough sample size you're going to get an unbalanced result one way or the other.
+ On that note I wish drivers were made aware of CBDR
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constant_bearing,_decreasing...
> Instead what I wanted to call out is that even if infinitely careful and drive defensively without fail you can still get into an accident, and you don't need to be hunted down or intentionally collided into+.
And again, seems to be massively different depending on the country. Locally, ~60% of motorcycle drivers claim to never have been in any accident, and that's including even careless people, so surely the claims of "even careful motorbike drivers will be in a accident" are over-exaggerated.
What if the mistake was riding a bicycle? You don't seem to be coming at this from the perspective of someone who prioritizes safety above all else.
Sorry to be callous about it. You're understandably angry. It's one thing to say you accept the risks of a risky behavior, and yet another to declare nothing could have been done.
Even if you're an incredibly skilled and careful rider, there are a multitude of accident types that are just completely out of your control. If you hit a diesel spill on a roundabout, the outcome is pure fate. Defensive riding only gets you so far - staying at home is the only realistic way to defend against the possibility that the driver in the next lane will spill his coffee and swerve into your path, or a driver waiting at a junction will abruptly pull out in front of you because he wasn't looking.
At least as importantly, the consequences of accidents are vastly magnified for motorcyclists. I know of people who have died in relatively low-speed crashes because they were unlucky enough to slide straight into a piece of road furniture or land head-first on a kerb. If you look at the accident statistics, a large proportion of fatalities and serious injuries involve low-powered motorcycles travelling at ordinary speeds on ordinary urban roads.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casua...
> driver in the next lane will spill his coffee and swerve into your path
You can significantly reduce that risk by simply staying away from others and avoiding situations with a large speed differential. If the lane next to you is going 20mph, don't go 40+ next to them.
There are a lot of these things you can do, that most people don't because "it's not their responsibility".
Risk is a product of likelihood and potential seriousness of consequences. The reason I consider motorbikes too risky is that the potential seriousness of consequences is extremely high if you're going at any reasonable speed.
And to flip the presentation of your stat around, that means 40% of motorbike riders have been in an accident. That sounds really high to me given the potential consequences!
> And to flip the presentation of your stat around, that means 40% of motorbike riders have been in an accident. That sounds really high to me given the potential consequences!
It sounds scary because it involves every type of accident, even minor ones. Useful to think about how many cars have ever been in accidents too, which should be around the same. The problem with motorcycle accidents is the fatality rates, just as you say, not the percentage of minor+major accidents.
People working in hospitals would rather have their kids smoke crack than ride motorcycles from what I personally gathered.
Sounds like they would need to read up on "guaranteed effects" vs "probable events" if that's the case.
Or work with any area of disabled sport, the two main routes into it for participants are the armed forces and motorbikes.
Isn't it true for every occupation that deals with the falloff of any activity?
E.g. https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/01/19/s...
In EMS we always had a high opinion of leather outfits for motorcycle riders because they kept the body parts all nicely zipped up in a leather bag instead of having to gather them spread out across 100 ft of asphalt.
Picked up a guy one time in full gear and top of the line helmet going 15 mph in traffic when the truck in front of him suddenly stopped and the rider hit the back and flung over the handle bars head-first crown into the tailgate.
Paralyzed from the neck down for the rest of his life.
I was terrified for his head. Great review though, as someone who's been mulling over getting a bike licence and struggling to wrap their head around gear ratings, this was eye opening.
Not sure where you're based, but the Safety Helmet Assessment and Rating Programme[0] in the UK is my go-to for.. well, helmet ratings.
That's sort of what I mean.
I looked up an Arai Tour X5, thanks for the link. It gives four stars and some colours for different zones at set impact speeds in m/s in a lab. It tells me it meets standard UN ECE REG 22.06 with a double D ring retention system and composite fibre materials. Super objective and necessary.
But I've read a lot of similar information and, somehow, seeing the results of a person being dragged down the road, for some unknown amount of time, which is pretty super subjective, still feels (perhaps wrongly even) as though it gives me a better understanding than just reading numbers/letters/colours.
The speed was relatively low. But yes, the lack of head protection was still scary.
Humorously, I have less than nothing to do with motorcycles but find the sponsor's product relevant. I never knew such a product existed but it makes perfect sense that motorcycle people would create it for those reasons. Kinda expensive though.
This is one of the few articles where F9 makes statements not supported by any science or experiments. Cow hides are strong, but they were not built for the purpose of protecting people from road rash. I had slides on asphalt at 60 km/h in textile suits (Klim) and I am still wearing that suit as a secondary one, it got stitched back and partly cleaned and it is just fine, it just has the scars to tell the stories. In 20 years on bikes the only leather items I bought are gloves and boots; this is because this is the only option (not talking about MX/enduro boots that are mostly plastic). Never had a problem with textile equipment and never felt the need for leather. Modern Cordura and kevlar layers are fine.
The final segment starting at 6:00 makes me think that he can wear as much leather as he wants protecting his body while sliding over asphalt when he's anyway intent on braking with his face and chin.
“There are many things you can point to as proof that the human is not smart. But my personal favorite would have to be that we needed to invent the helmet. What was happening, apparently, was that we were involved in a lot of activities that were cracking our heads. We chose not to avoid doing those activities but, instead, to come up with some sort of device to help us enjoy our head-cracking lifestyles. And even that didn’t work because not enough people were wearing them so we had to come up with the helmet law. Which is even stupider, the idea behind the helmet law being to preserve a brain whose judgment is so poor, it does not even try to avoid the cracking of the head it’s in.”
They have a couple of quite good videos on helmets, I assume this time it was just to get a nice shot of him smiling empty-headedly for comedic effect.
Internet comment safety policing, when you have no idea what went in to making the content, is one of the more tiresome things a person could ever do.
I think that we haven’t reached the insulation to weight ratio of down feathers, so that’d be another example where artificial fabrics haven’t reach some qualities of natural materials.
I'd doubt feathers would be better insulators than aerogel.
Wow that slide was much longer than expected. I had always assumed it's good for a second maybe two
A silent upvote does not do this video justice, it is simply amazing.
[video]?
FortNine is a hidden gem of a YouTuber. Many of his videos are just showing his passion for riding and interesting facts like "different ways to mount a motorcycle" and are entertaining to watch him climb up the back tire and hop onto the bike. But then some of the videos are actually highly educational and he incorporates tested science and studies and explains why things are they way they are like the science of different leaning styles while riding and their science.
The video that has always stuck with me is when he explained the science behind how motorcycles are hard to gauge their speed and distance and related it to how pigeons see. It showed me that a lot of why drivers have a tendency to pull out and cut off riders is more to do with not being aware that it can be very difficult to calculate the distance and speed of a motorcycle the same as we do with a car. With that knowledge as a rider I have actually changed my driving and really make sure I fully check both directions before pulling out. I also, as a rider, pay attention to side roads and driveways and always assume the car is going to pull out. I have never almost pulled in front of a rider but I can say I have many times avoided cars by riding defensively.