• alister 18 hours ago

    I want to mention another infection happening at payment terminals and ATMs if you're using your credit card in a foreign country: You get a message saying "Would you like to pay in your own currency? Click [Accept] or [Decline]", and there's fine print that says there's a 12-15% currency conversion markup.

    To give a concrete example, if you're an American traveling in Brazil withdrawing cash from an ATM or buying something for BRL 500, you'll be presented with an option to pay BRL 500 or pay just US$110.58 in your own currency (with text saying conversion includes 15%).

    But the typical American (and Canadian) credit card adds at most 2.5% to the Visa or Mastercard exchange rate, which is at most 0.5% higher than the interbank rate. So basically by clicking the wrong button, you're paying an extra 12% to the payment processor. In the example above, your credit card would have charged you about US$99.04 had you declined the conversion, and saved you $10.

    I can't imagine a situation where it's to your benefit to accept the "conversion service" they're offering. I wonder if the payment processor is kicking back some of the profit back to the merchant because this swindle is spreading everywhere.

    The worst part is that a couple of people that I've tried to warn don't get it. They still think that they should pick US$ (or whatever their own currency is) because that's what their credit card uses.

    • nebster 15 hours ago

      Some are even worse than this. When I was in Portugal, the machine said "Press (1) for GBP. Press (2) for EUR.", then on the next screen, after you select "(2) for EUR", it says "Rate will Apply. Please confirm. (1) Accept conversion (2) Reject Conversion". If you select "Accept conversion", it overrides your currency decision and you pay in GBP with their markup fee...

      It's a complete con...

      • BrandoElFollito 15 hours ago

        Oh, that one is weird.

        I see this feature in Poland. The choice is clear. Or there is no choice and it is paid in local currency.

        • lotsofpulp 9 hours ago

          That one is not weird. There is an intent to deceive, so it is fraud.

      • paranoidrobot 2 hours ago

        A few years ago I was checking out of a reasonably up-scale hotel in Barcelona early in the morning.

        They punch numbers into one of those wireless hand terminals. I tap my card, enter the pin and then before I can react to what the screen is now saying they've punched the 'Accept Conversion' button and submit it. By the time I realise what has happened, it's too late and has started printing the reciept.

        I insisted they reverse it and redo the transaction without that - the staff didn't understand and didn't care they'd cost me another 10-15%. It really adds up for a week long stay.

        • Panzer04 2 hours ago

          What the fuck? Why are they tapping the terminal before you've confirmed the transaction?

          • jerlam 2 hours ago

            In my experience, staff will do this if they are pressed for time, or when tourists don't know how to read or operate the payment systems and linger.

        • SirMaster 10 hours ago

          This happened to me, but it was the merchant that clicked it...

          I inserted my card, and then was reading the text and choice that popped up on the screen, and while I was reading it trying to decide which I should click, the merchant grabbed the scanner and clicked the accept...

          Of course I got a charge notification on my mobile app immediately and noticed that it was way higher than it should have been, so then I had to go back to them and get them to refund the transaction so we could do it again which took forever and a manager etc etc.

          • fxtentacle 2 hours ago

            I've also learned that it is a good idea to physically put my hand around the payment thingy to make sure I am the one pressing the buttons.

          • tianqi 14 hours ago

            Currency conversion is not only incredibly fraught with traps, but believe me, even for very intelligent and research-savvy individuals, if you're not a professional in this area, you'll struggle to see all the pitfalls and still fall for them. I don't consider myself stupid, but I spent several days seriously researching it, and ultimately, after being exploited by several new tricks, I gave up. I consider those losses as a part of travel expenses and avoid letting it amplify my losses, that ruining my travel. PayPal is even more blatant fraud. You never know how much money is left after a transfer or withdrawal until you're surprised, and then they'll say they mentioned it in some tens of thousands of words of agreement that they would deduct this amount.

            • bigfatkitten 16 hours ago

              PayPal does this too. They will offer to do the currency conversion at an outrageous rate. Not quite 15%, though always substantially more than Mastercard’s rate of the day.

              • tetris11 16 hours ago

                Amazon does something like this too, though I'm not sure of the percent. I just know that every time I select to pay in dollars, any change in delivery options will select it back to pay in euros, where the bank is.

                I genuinely don't know if this is good or not, but the UIs insistence on reverting back to another currency after my initial selection leads me to believe that my initial selection hits them the hardest the most

                • account42 13 hours ago

                  Amazon.com does add a ~2% "currency conversion guarantee" fee when paying in EUR, on top of whatever conversion they use. I imagine that the average cost of that "service" to them is closer to 0%.

                • spicyjpeg 15 hours ago

                  The even worse part about PayPal is that they have a whole system of nonsensical fees to fall back to when you inevitably figure out how to evade the obvious ones. For instance, sidestepping their dynamic currency conversion by temporarily changing which currency they bill on your card (which by the way is rate limited to only a few times per month) will result in another "non-foreign transaction but with recipient in foreign country" fee appearing, covering the inherent costs of converting German US dollars to American US dollars or whatever. They will at least hide the fee from you for business transactions, but the merchant still has to pay it.

                  • ornornor 9 hours ago

                    That’s 100% a US problem. Never had this issue in the EU, PayPal etc are obligated to offer the option to “just bill in transaction currency and let the card issuer handle conversion etc” without fees.

                • bayindirh 18 hours ago

                  This was being asked as long as I remember (~15 years now?) but the conversion commissions were around 2%-5% at most. 15% is egregious.

                  • alister 18 hours ago

                    At least in Brazil, it was very rare. In the last 3-4 years, it's almost every time you pay. And you have to grab and hold the payment terminal (especially if you're using tap / contactless payment) so the cashier or waiter, trying to be helpful, doesn't click the wrong button and cost you 15%.

                    • londons_explore 15 hours ago

                      > trying to be helpful

                      Some places they're insistent that you must do currency conversion or the payment won't work. Makes me think the merchant must be getting a chunk of that profit and telling their staff to accept the conversion...

                      • bayindirh 14 hours ago

                        Another more benign reason possibly be the customer's card might be closed to different-currency transactions.

                        For example, I can choose my bank to do the conversion at the time of purchase, or pay with that currency when the invoice comes.

                    • einpoklum 17 hours ago

                      2% is already excessive and 5% is quite egregious.

                      Plus, the point is that you're asked whether you'd like to pay more for something, where there is no benefit in it for you nor a public benefit etc.

                    • BrandoElFollito 15 hours ago

                      The rule is always "pay with local currency"

                      We have the same thing in Euroland

                      • account42 13 hours ago

                        Exactly, who has more incentive to rip you off, your bank or some random merchant/payment processor/local bank that you are probably never going to interact with again either way.

                      • tiew9Vii 17 hours ago

                        Speaking of payment terminals.

                        Payment terminals used to have good UX, they all clearly showed you the price when paying. Tills had displays with the price facing the customer which were clearly visible.

                        Now traditional POS terminals have been replaced with tap and go devices by the latest fintech, non of them show the price to the customer by design. Instead you tap a small puck and you hope the price charged is the one asked only to find a transaction fee on top when later check your balance.

                        It's a deliberate design choice to withhold showing the price on these devices. It's cheap to add a small LCD panel to them, the technology previously existed and still exists however the choice have been made not to.

                        • willis936 16 hours ago

                          I was in awe of an old vending machine I saw in the Caribbean recently. I didn't want anything but I spent a few seconds just pushing buttons to check prices. The segmented display read out the price the very instant I touched the button for the item. There was no perceptible delay for a bloated software stack running on some cheap processor that waits for too many bits over a crappy cellular internet connection. Everything needed was right there, between the hard-coded logic and me.

                          • jabroni_salad 6 hours ago

                            I think your retailer has misconfigured their setup. Everywhere I tap against a puck, it is also accompanied by a screen. The puck is always just a plugin module as opposed to being integrated on the terminal.

                            • friendzis 13 hours ago

                              > Instead you tap a small puck and you hope the price charged is the one asked only to find a transaction fee on top when later check your balance.

                              I'm sorry, but it's a mandatory knee-jerk response here: "Is this something I'm too European to undestand?"

                              Even the the smallest, crappiest devices are required to have a line LCD to show the final price. Goes to show that consumer protection minimums do really set the bar for eventual exploitation.

                            • scott_w 17 hours ago

                              As others have said, currency conversion has been a well-known "scam" for as long as I can remember. I'm sure Martin Lewis has been talking about this since at least the early 2000s in some form.

                              • wombat-man 12 hours ago

                                They seemed to have given up on this in some areas. I don't think they asked me this once during my visit to France in October. This included Paris and smaller towns.

                                • MarceliusK 15 hours ago

                                  The fact that people don't believe you when you explain it just shows how effective the framing is

                                  • imp0cat 18 hours ago

                                    Nowadays banks usually allow you to block DCC (dynamic currency conversion) and it is definitely worth it if you travel.

                                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_currency_conversion

                                    • alister 18 hours ago

                                      Thank you for telling me what it's called!

                                      On the positive side, it seems that Wise must block it because I never see the DCC "choice" when using a Wise card.

                                      As a negative point, I've noticed that AirBnB, which used to use reasonable conversion rates, has just recently started to use exorbitant currency conversion and not allow you to pay in the local currency of the country you're traveling to (so you can let your own credit card do the conversion at a lower rate). I.e., if you try to book a property in Brazil in BRL (literally clicking on the price to pay in BRL), the charge will nevertheless go through in USD (or whatever currency is your own) with AirBnb doing the conversion at the rate they choose.

                                      • londons_explore 14 hours ago

                                        Aliexpress also shows prices in one currency but then refuses to take payment in that currency and does their own conversion with an unfavourable rate... Seems to be allowed with some combinations of delivery country and currency but not others.

                                        • direwolf20 14 hours ago

                                          So they charge you for an amount different to advertised? Tell your bank. You might get a refund and at least they'll have the complaint on file so the next victim might get a refund. If enough people complain and AirBNB don't fix it, AirBNB gets banned from accepting cards.

                                        • odysseus 18 hours ago

                                          Where do you block it? I don’t see an obvious option at any of my banks or that article.

                                          • imp0cat 17 hours ago

                                            It is usually an option in your bank's app. It depends on the bank though, obviously. If it's not there, you have to be vigilant while using your card (always select the local currency when given the option).

                                            • shawabawa3 16 hours ago

                                              I checked and it doesn't look like any UK banks have this option - at least I looked at about 5 different banks websites and all have pages suggesting you always select to pay in local currency but none of them have any information on disabling this behaviour

                                              Gemini confirms it's not a thing, and not really possible (the terminals just detect the country from the card number)

                                              • noname120 16 hours ago

                                                I don’t know a single bank in Europe that provides this option

                                                Edit: Perplexity says this:

                                                > cards cannot block DCC offers because the merchant terminal identifies your card’s country of origin from the card number and offers DCC accordingly. Always manually decline at payment to let the card handle conversion at better rates

                                                • embe42 11 hours ago

                                                  My bank (mBank in Poland) has per card options for declining various types of transactions, among others: made using the magnetic strip, with DCC, with added ATM surcharges. The bank probably cannot disable the "service" offered by the terminal but seems to get enough information to be able to decline the transaction.

                                          • account42 13 hours ago

                                            When you think about it, it's just another "Tourist tax" of which are are many. Other times you just get quoted a different base price as a tourist vs. native - openly or not.

                                          • pronik 17 hours ago

                                            An especially egregious case I've encountered was at Berlin train station.

                                            Normally in Germany, you've got those distinct card terminals with a display where you see your total before paying. Some of those have started nagging you for tips which you need to explicitely accept or decline first before tapping your card. Not in this case though: after you've ordered your food, they point you to the combined order/pay display and while you awe at the technology marvel of combining both, you tap your card on that and then you notice that 15% tip has been automatically included and charged. You needed to notice some small text and small buttons in the corner of that display beforehand and actively tap on "0%" or something before tapping your card. I'm already furious they've let this tip begging to be added to the card terminals, but charging tips without explicit consent should be completely illegal.

                                            • RestartKernel 16 hours ago

                                              At Schiphol they offer tipping options to presumably prey on Americans, but the attendant physically reached over the counter to reject it after I ordered in (native) Dutch. Can't imagine how much trouble locals had been giving the shop before training staff like this.

                                              • mpeg 14 hours ago

                                                Happens in Spain too, the card machine will sometimes have tip options but the waiter selects no tip if serving locals to avoid the annoyance

                                                • mk12 14 hours ago

                                                  I’ve seen Starbucks employees in the US do this often.

                                                  • RestartKernel 9 hours ago

                                                    Isn't this directly taking money out of their own pocket, or are tips going to corporate?

                                                • reaperducer 27 minutes ago

                                                  An especially egregious case I've encountered was at Berlin train station.

                                                  You must have been in Berlin, Wisconsin because we've been assured repeatedly on HN that the tipping plague thing is exclusively an American problem, and never ever happens in Eurosparkleponyland.

                                                  Ditto for spam calls and texts.

                                                  • nicbou 16 hours ago

                                                    I am pretty sure it is completely illegal.

                                                    • account42 13 hours ago

                                                      Would the credit card company / bank let you dispute the charge? I imagine that's going to be difficult with a card present transaction.

                                                      • axiolite 3 minutes ago

                                                        If you purchased $50 worth of items and got charged $75, wouldn't you dispute it?

                                                    • port11 15 hours ago

                                                      And wonderfully done in a city where people are usually paid a living wage, and even students don’t have to work for free (hi Belgium!)

                                                      • MarceliusK 15 hours ago

                                                        And I think people don't mind tipping when they feel it's voluntary

                                                        • direwolf20 14 hours ago

                                                          It is illegal. They're counting on you to be too busy to sue them. That's why you only saw it in a train station. Ask your bank for a refund for the fraudulent transaction — you probably don't have enough evidence to prove it happened, but they'll still put the complaint on file.

                                                          Lawsuits and chargebacks are about the only pressure businesses have not to scam you.

                                                          • missingdays 16 hours ago

                                                            I hate that the tipping culture is infecting Germany now

                                                            • spinningarrow 15 hours ago

                                                              Tipping culture has been around in Germany for a long time, hasn’t it? It’s surprisingly common there

                                                              • Akronymus 14 minutes ago

                                                                Mostly contained to tourist areas though. But AFAICT, it's been spreading recently.

                                                                • pronik 3 hours ago

                                                                  It's not the tipping culture that's invading Germany, it's the "begging for tips" culture. The worst kind. You buy a piece of bread at the bakery over the counter, pay with card, the card reader is begging for tips. This is exceptionally out of the ordinary, but I'm afraid there is not enough explicit resistance and there is still too much "looking up to the USA" happening so that the society might accept this idiocy as normal some day.

                                                                  • majewsky 10 hours ago

                                                                    (I'm German. This is my personal stance.)

                                                                    Charging a tip for to-go items is preposterous. When dining in, I will indeed tip, usually by rounding up to the next 5 or 10 euro increment for a group meal, or to the next 1 or 2 euro increment for single meals (e.g. during lunch hours near the office). But this is only if the service is actually good. If a restaurant makes me wait more than 30 minutes for a quick lunch, they will be paid exactly the amount posted on the menu.

                                                                    • missingdays 15 hours ago

                                                                      Not to this extent

                                                                • AnotherGoodName a day ago

                                                                  Ooooh do the one where hitting ‘payment’ on the app buys $25 of store credit by default rather than just paying and deducts the 9.64 from that credit.

                                                                  Then when you spend down the credit to $2 any attempt to buy something that costs more refills the credit.

                                                                  Starbucks app btw. You have to specifically pay with card on the payment screen to avoid buying credit and paying as above.

                                                                  • nayuki 17 hours ago

                                                                    Toronto Parking Authority is guilty of this. If you pay at a terminal on the street, then you're charged the exact amount needed for your parking session. If you pay using the mobile app, then it charges your credit card in increments of $20, requires your mobile phone number as an account identifier, and keeps track of your remaining monetary balance.

                                                                    • BolsunBacset 10 hours ago

                                                                      The only saving grace here is that it goes to the municipality at least

                                                                    • appplication 21 hours ago

                                                                      This is how a lot of transit cards work, unfortunately.

                                                                      • consp 19 hours ago

                                                                        Most of those (used to) work offline too, as long as there was money on the card. Not something an online payment system or app needs to deal with.

                                                                        • chii 19 hours ago

                                                                          if i recall, in singapore, the transit card costs are refundable.

                                                                          I think that's the only place i've seen it refundable.

                                                                          • jsmith99 19 hours ago

                                                                            London oyster cards also offer a refund of your pay as you go balance.

                                                                            • hdgvhicv 18 hours ago

                                                                              I suspect most people just use contactless nowadays, Especially infrequent visitors.

                                                                              • williamdclt 14 hours ago

                                                                                > Especially infrequent visitors

                                                                                I don't know a single resident who uses oyster (maybe kids? Dunno, I don't have kids in my social circle), infrequent visitors are actually the only ones I've seen using oyster and that's because they thought that was the only way to use transport

                                                                            • shiroiuma 18 hours ago

                                                                              They're refundable in Japan too.

                                                                          • ipnon 21 hours ago

                                                                            This is called a float business in finance. Starbucks has more than a billion dollars in unredeemed balances, and they make ~$200 million per year in interest with this cash. They're basically a bank with a coffee shop side hustle.

                                                                            • hakfoo 20 hours ago

                                                                              How are they getting 20% on a deposit that presumably could be called up at any time, and how can I get in on it when the stupid "High Yield" accounts I can find top out at around 4%?

                                                                              • fsckboy 19 hours ago

                                                                                large businesses have large cash borrowing needs. if they borrow for free from their customers, it reduces the other borrowing they would need to do, so the rate to use is not what interest rate is available to you, but rather how much interest that Starbucks would need to pay for loans that size. Furthermore, whereas dividends are taxed twice (once as profit for the company and again as regular income to the shareholder), interest is a tax deduction to the company (which decreases their taxable profits) and for a percentage of debtholders that interest income is also taxed advantageously.

                                                                                probably doesn't come up to 20% (unless Starbucks is in junk bond territory) but it's higher than the investment rate of 4% that you're quoting.

                                                                                • quacksilver 16 hours ago

                                                                                  Do they include expiring credit in that figure?

                                                                                  Most of the time they have a buried clause that says that you forfeit all of your credit or get charged an inactivity fee if there have been no account transactions or no credit added for 12 or 18 months. Same reason why you should never buy gift cards.

                                                                                  • kimos 15 hours ago

                                                                                    This may apply in the US but not everywhere. In Canada it is illegal to expire and take back money on gift cards.

                                                                                    So they can keep collecting interest on it forever, but they have to keep the balance for you indefinitely.

                                                                                    • reaperducer 24 minutes ago

                                                                                      The U.S. as well.

                                                                                      By law, gift cards never expire.

                                                                                      Unfortunately, I have several gift cards I didn't use before the store expired.

                                                                                  • abustamam 20 hours ago

                                                                                    They may buy bonds or something like that.

                                                                                    • RexM 20 hours ago

                                                                                      For a 20% return in a year?

                                                                                      The numbers given have to be incorrect.

                                                                                      • abustamam 13 hours ago

                                                                                        Oh yeah I wasn't taking OPs number at face value

                                                                                        • chii 19 hours ago

                                                                                          probably 2%, not 20%.

                                                                                        • deaux 20 hours ago

                                                                                          Yielding a yearly 20%?

                                                                                          • williamdclt 14 hours ago

                                                                                            If anyone knows of _any_ investment yielding a yearly 20% reliably, I'd certainly be interested. If Starbucks figured that out, I don't know why they're bothering making coffee.

                                                                                      • deathanatos 20 hours ago

                                                                                        A quick Google suggests in 2016 it was $1.17B, and earned $21M, or 1.79%.

                                                                                        (via https://www.amminvest.com/starbucks-sbux-float/ )

                                                                                        • sunrunner 19 hours ago

                                                                                          I mean I’d love to have a free $21M a year, but if you’re already Starbucks then somehow it feels like pocket change compared to your actual earnings and would question if it was worth the effort.

                                                                                          • foepys 19 hours ago

                                                                                            But they also have over a billion cash at hand. I imagine at that scale and customers being private, the amount is pretty stable and Starbucks can just do whatever with this since it's extremely unlikely that customers demand all their money back at once.

                                                                                            • awesome_dude 19 hours ago

                                                                                              Sorry, can they (customers) demand it back?

                                                                                              I mean, once Starbucks have it, then the customers get it back via product (that has a margin included), or just leave it forever (free money!)

                                                                                              I have a firm "No vouchers" rule because of this, the vouchers in my part of the world inexplicably "expire" if not used within a certain amount of time, cannot be redeemed for cash, and will not be honoured if the business goes belly up

                                                                                              • consp 19 hours ago

                                                                                                According the laws here they have to. Doesn't mean they won't make it difficult. And it needs to be in a separate account and business (to avoid it being drawn into a bankruptcy). Not that this has ever stopped businesses from abusing it anyway. I doubt this voucher option is available in the Dutch app because of this but I didn't bother to check.

                                                                                            • TylerE 19 hours ago

                                                                                              That was actually a bad year, as that "free" $21 million represented a loss of about $30 million. $1.17 billion on Jan 1st 2016 is equivalent to $1.22 billion a year later due to inflation. So they would have had to generate $50 million just to break even in actual buying power terms.

                                                                                              • sunrunner 13 hours ago

                                                                                                Is that based on not investing that $21 million or am I misreading something about how that money was or wasn't used?

                                                                                                • deathanatos 10 hours ago

                                                                                                  No, they're saying that inflation that year was 4.3% ($1.22B / $1.17B¹) If you're only making 1.8% in investing it, you're not beating inflation, and your money, though nominally growing (number is going up), is decreasing in its real value (amount of stuff the money gets is going down).

                                                                                                  (¹I think this is too high; BLS thinks inflation over 2016 was 2.5%. But their core point still stands: interest earned was below inflation.)

                                                                                                  • TylerE 3 hours ago

                                                                                                    I used the CPI

                                                                                          • gcau 20 hours ago

                                                                                            If they're intentionally causing the customer to have an unspendable balance, knowing that it's making them $200m/yr, how is that not fraud (or some kind of crime)? I'd expect atleast CA would do something about it.

                                                                                            • ipnon 20 hours ago

                                                                                              Customers agree to this when they accept the terms of the app. This is also how a debit or savings account at any bank works. Both businesses have sophisticated models to determine how and when customers are likely to make withdrawals, and based on these models they lend out the money based on acceptable risk criteria.

                                                                                              • sunrunner 19 hours ago

                                                                                                Even if it is in the T&Cs, this one feels like it wouldn’t actually hold up?

                                                                                                Expecting people to read those for most simple sign ups is already a high baseline, and Starbucks is not technically a banks and offers no consumer protections (FSCS or other), so that feels knowingly misleading, even if the total balances held are small per customer.

                                                                                                IANAL, of course.

                                                                                          • MarceliusK 15 hours ago

                                                                                            At minimum, the default should be "pay exact amount"

                                                                                            • reactordev a day ago

                                                                                              I've been trapped for 15 years!

                                                                                              • disillusioned 21 hours ago

                                                                                                Einstein's Bagels does this asinine shit, too, like I want to bank with a fucking mediocre bagel joint.

                                                                                                • gib444 a day ago

                                                                                                  That is wild

                                                                                                • mystifyingpoi 18 hours ago

                                                                                                  All these silly excuses people make: "I tip when the service is good", "I tip when conversation with bartender is engaging", "I tip when the server runs around me in circles, I count the circles and convert it with an exchange rate of $2/circle". Wow.

                                                                                                  I'm from EU, so ymmw. I simply don't tip. Why? Because I don't have to. And if I don't have to, then I don't. It is that simple.

                                                                                                  • bambax 18 hours ago

                                                                                                    Yes but here in France where service is included and tipping is never compulsory (or expected), payment terminals are appearing where you need to select the tip before typing your code. This is usually shoved in your face by the waiter at touristy places, and they're watching you.

                                                                                                    Don't fall for it though! Just select "no tip" or "0" like in this game and you're good.

                                                                                                    • dkarbayev 5 minutes ago

                                                                                                      I was extorted 15% tips in Paris in a restaurant with shitty food not too far away from the Eiffel Tower. Unfortunately, I didn't have roaming package at the time so I couldn't check that place's rating on Google Maps before ordering food. Turns out, there were lots of complaints about their service. In retrospective, I should have probably called police when they were actively insisting that 20% tips are mandatory and after like 5 minutes of arguing they "kindly" agreed to lower it to 15%.

                                                                                                      • BrandoElFollito 15 hours ago

                                                                                                        Exactly. Only by selecting 0 this will put pressure to get rid of it

                                                                                                        I saw this in two restaurants already and I am pissed

                                                                                                        • londons_explore 14 hours ago

                                                                                                          It won't though. A screen on the card terminal is free - if just 1% of people misclick the button and pay a tip, the company still wins.

                                                                                                          • Wowfunhappy 12 hours ago

                                                                                                            A restaurant is fundamentally selling an experience. These screens do not improve the experience. Therefore, they have some cost to the business. The question is whether the cost is recuperated.

                                                                                                            • majewsky 10 hours ago

                                                                                                              Doesn't matter in touristy places though, because you don't rely on repeat customers.

                                                                                                            • BrandoElFollito 13 hours ago

                                                                                                              > A screen on the card terminal is free

                                                                                                              ... consulting companies developing the terminal entered the chat ...

                                                                                                              (just kidding, I agree with you)

                                                                                                            • direwolf20 14 hours ago

                                                                                                              This is no pressure. You can exert pressure by saying that you are cancelling the transaction because of the tipping screen and you'll eat somewhere else.

                                                                                                              • BrandoElFollito 14 hours ago

                                                                                                                This is too late, at that stage you have already eaten. I am not sure if they appreciate if you give them the food back.

                                                                                                                • basilikum 13 hours ago

                                                                                                                  You could tell them that you are very happy to pay them the price they printed on the menu and that they can present you with a payment terminal charging exactly that price, but that you will not do that job for them. Basically make the waiter select the 0% option.

                                                                                                                  But in the end you'll only annoy the waiter and not the owner of the restaurant who is actually running the tipping scam.

                                                                                                                  • account42 13 hours ago

                                                                                                                    At least in that case you can safely select a 0 tip. It's worse when you pay up front and have to worry about a lower than expected tip resulting in some kind of retribution from the staff.

                                                                                                                  • bambax 13 hours ago

                                                                                                                    Yeah that's not possible. When you're presented with the terminal the food is already in your system.

                                                                                                                    Or maybe you can be like our former Ministry of Culture, Jack Lang, who just resigned from a prestigious, if useless, post in the wake of the Epstein scandal. It was revealed that he never paid for anything in his 60+ years of public "service", always leaving restaurants, hotels, etc. without footing the bill.

                                                                                                                    For you and me, this would be called stealing and would eventually land us in jail. But if you're a minister in France it's called "living like a prince" and being "a little stingy".

                                                                                                              • j1elo 13 hours ago

                                                                                                                Little known (apparently) thing from Spain is that our tips are not proportional. I see percentages everywhere when going out... 10% here, 15% there, so the quantities seem outrageous to me. In Spain if you want you leave a 1€ or 2€ coin, maybe 3 or 4€ plus some other smaller coins if you are more than 2 people. But that's it.

                                                                                                                I've never seen a tip reaching 10€ in a restaurant, even in tables of 5+ people.

                                                                                                                • MarceliusK 15 hours ago

                                                                                                                  The bigger issue, to me, is that the burden is on customers at all. That's what creates all this awkwardness and moral accounting in the first place

                                                                                                                  • n4r9 18 hours ago

                                                                                                                    What's ymmw? Your mileage may waver?

                                                                                                                    • kleiba 17 hours ago

                                                                                                                      > I'm from EU

                                                                                                                      Now we know they mean Germany.

                                                                                                                      • hocuspocus 13 hours ago

                                                                                                                        Funnily enough Germans do tip, for pretty average service compared to most European countries where waiters are expecting zero tips.

                                                                                                                        • llamara 12 hours ago

                                                                                                                          Of course. After living in Germany I can say that if I has not been not insulted in the process and the staff did not glare at me like I'm interrupting their free time, then the service was already much better than average

                                                                                                                      • ragazzina 17 hours ago

                                                                                                                        Your mileage may wario.

                                                                                                                      • tamimio 17 hours ago

                                                                                                                        I don’t tip either, simply because the work done wasn’t worth tipping. The only time I tipped was in a 7 stars restaurant, and the waitresses were up to their names, literally standing and waiting by our table changing utensils and plates and filling the drinks. North America tipping “culture” is out of control, I remember picking up some street food and the guy asked for a tip.. Most restaurants nowadays buy the food from costco, machines do most of the cooking, and the waitress job can be literally replaced by a robot, it’s just a scam and it should be illegal actually.

                                                                                                                        • blks 15 hours ago

                                                                                                                          The actual scam is that restaurants can and do pay wait staff below minimum wage (like 2-3$), because it’s explicitly allowed, with expectation that the rest comes from tips. So not tipping in USA may in some cases be an asshole move.

                                                                                                                          • RegnisGnaw 8 hours ago

                                                                                                                            They legally cannot. If the average wage per hours including tips is under the Federal minimum wage in a pay period, the company must top up so that the wage per hour is the Federal minimum wage.

                                                                                                                            • AngryData 2 hours ago

                                                                                                                              Well wage theft in the US dwarfs all other forms of theft combined.

                                                                                                                              But also actually demanding those wages if you dont get enough tip money is a great way for them to get fired. And if they are that poor to work in those conditions they will have a hard time scraping the money to go to court to get an unlawful dismissal case.

                                                                                                                            • janandonly 12 hours ago

                                                                                                                              I remember dining out one time. In Philly, if memory serves me?

                                                                                                                              Anyways I remember the hamburger place because they didn’t ask for, or even allowed us, to tip. The price was all-in.

                                                                                                                              It’s a breath of fresh air! More restaurants should advertise with this feature.

                                                                                                                              • account42 13 hours ago

                                                                                                                                Wait staff can lobby to change that if they want. Or just get a different job and let supply and demand sort out the wages for the remaining waiters.

                                                                                                                                • NietzscheanNull 8 hours ago

                                                                                                                                  You can't be serious. We're discussing a class of people making sub-minimum wages, barely scraping by to afford rent and groceries (much less any childcare or medical expenses), and your suggestion is "lobby to change that" or "just get a different job"?

                                                                                                                                  As someone who has previously worked for that wage and finally did "get a different job," there was no "just" about it. I had the support of well-off family who were willing to significantly contribute to my education and living situation, and it still took years of hard toil (all while being nearly destitute) before ever achieving anything resembling financial stability. That was not (and likely never will be) an option for 90-95% of the people I worked with in the food-service industry. There is absolutely no justification (beyond abject greed) for that type of poverty wage, and it's the responsibility of everyone in our society to prevent that type of exploitation of the vulnerable, precisely because they cannot afford to "lobby to change that" and often can't "get a different job" outside of the same industry.

                                                                                                                                • PopAlongKid 11 hours ago

                                                                                                                                  >pay wait staff below minimum wage (like 2-3$), because it’s explicitly allowed

                                                                                                                                  Not in all U.S. states, for example California.

                                                                                                                                  • direwolf20 14 hours ago

                                                                                                                                    Tipping is one of those Moloch coordination problems where if everyone would suddenly decide to make the world better at the same time, it would be, but if only a few people try to make the world better, it gets worse and they're assholes.

                                                                                                                                    https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/

                                                                                                                                    • account42 13 hours ago

                                                                                                                                      It's really not a binary situation where you'd ever see $2 wages with no tips though. If less people tip then the effective real minimum wage will gradually increase to compensate - either because laws are updated or because the restaurant has to compete with other better paying job opportunities. Sure some waiters may get upset when someone doesn't tip, but that is just that - them getting upset - and not the client being an asshole.

                                                                                                                                  • williamdclt 14 hours ago

                                                                                                                                    > the waitresses were up to their names, literally standing and waiting by our table changing utensils and plates and filling the drinks

                                                                                                                                    FWIW, this sounds like a deeply unpleasant experience to me

                                                                                                                                    • dspillett 13 hours ago

                                                                                                                                      > and the waitresses were up to their names, literally standing and waiting by our table

                                                                                                                                      I hate that. My old boss would book us into 5* places when we travelled for work and his wife was also there. People standing over me just felt “ick”. Like when the security guard decides to fallow you around the supermarket! (the latter has only happened a couple of times that I've noticed, when it did I made a point of spending much longer than I otherwise would meandering back & forth, and gave them a grin on my way out after paying…)

                                                                                                                                      • roryirvine 11 hours ago

                                                                                                                                        It's usually pretty discreet - they'll stay out of your line of sight and, if they're doing it right, you should barely notice them stepping in to top up your wine, etc.

                                                                                                                                        Not sure what star rating system you're going by (Michelin only goes up to 3), but I'd expect that level of service even at 1* restaurants.

                                                                                                                                        • dspillett 10 hours ago

                                                                                                                                          I'm meaning hotel (and therefore the bars/other within them) ratings rather than restaurant stars.

                                                                                                                                          Maybe years living in a somewhat ropey town and having to be careful in alley-ways and tree covered areas has tuned me to be extra sensitive to people trying to stay out of line of sight…

                                                                                                                                      • hypercube33 15 hours ago

                                                                                                                                        One of the things not discussed here is that for many wait staff wages are far lower than our pathetic minimum wage (USA) so these people tend to make sub poverty to start with on the promise of tips.

                                                                                                                                        I do agree though that the whole culture was broken before and now with payment kiosks asking for tips everywhere it's absurd.

                                                                                                                                      • Markoff 17 hours ago

                                                                                                                                        And imagine people bring their own drinks to restaurants in China (for big family lunch it can be even big plastic bags full of many bottles) and nobody even understand the concept of the tipping - why would you tip someone for doing their work and paying for the meal? One of the things I loved about China. They even come running after you if you forget your change.

                                                                                                                                        What I liked much less is smoking in the restaurants which happens in Beijing even in 2026 despite posters on the wall saying No smoking in Chinese and English and everyone is affraid to tell something to smoker. You would think after years of campaigning it will improve, but I don't see much improvement after visiting after many years.

                                                                                                                                        • hk__2 17 hours ago

                                                                                                                                          You see these things in the EU too.

                                                                                                                                          • PlatoIsADisease 13 hours ago

                                                                                                                                            The service in the US is significantly better than in Europe.

                                                                                                                                            You want to feel like a burden when you go out to eat, eat in Italy.

                                                                                                                                            In the US, the servers are dancing excited for you to be there.

                                                                                                                                            • hocuspocus 13 hours ago

                                                                                                                                              Only if by better you mean annoying.

                                                                                                                                              I've always had good experiences in Italy even though I was a stupid tourist during peak season.

                                                                                                                                              • account42 13 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                Agreed, not a fan of all the "is everything alright" and "can I get you anything else" and other "helpful" interruptions that many US waiters like to do.

                                                                                                                                              • CaptainZapp 13 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                That's a matter of taste.

                                                                                                                                                I, for one, can't stand this fake chumminess you often experience in American restaurants.

                                                                                                                                              • gitowiec 17 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                I'm also from EU. I tip only at restaurants, only 10% on average. The prices when recently up like 50% or so. So adding the tip on top of that is a hustle. And 10% on the higher price is also higher tip, so I am double assured I do good

                                                                                                                                                • wellf 15 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                  Inflation my man

                                                                                                                                                  • Markoff 17 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                    here in Central Europe (SK/CZ) we never done percentage, we were just rounding up the sum, like 283 to 300, but even 292 would become 300, and if it's bill 300 then tough luck for waiter. But not sure what is the situation in recent years with card payments replacing cash, tips must been hit hard, also raising prices and people going to restaurants less and less doesn't help much.

                                                                                                                                                    Personally I pretty much stopped going to restaurants completely during COVID when I was treated worse than dog - dogs allowed (to some places), unvaxxed not allowed to enter.

                                                                                                                                                    • BrandoElFollito 14 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                      > unvwaxxed not allowed to enter

                                                                                                                                                      This is the correct approach. If you are an asdhole for not caring about others but using the herd immunity znyway, this is the latest that can be done to show contempt.

                                                                                                                                                      My wife is immunodepressed and cannot be vaccinated. She avoids plenty of places because shit people like this do not care.

                                                                                                                                                      I once physically threw away someone sick and unvaccinated from a place for babies only that are not protected by the mother and too young to protect themselves. It was violent, I called the police afterwards myself.

                                                                                                                                                      People don't be dicks with other people life.

                                                                                                                                                      • account42 13 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                        Covid vaccines never prevented infection and transmission. If anything, out of the people I know the vaccinated got it much more often because they were more careless.

                                                                                                                                                        • n4r9 12 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                          No one claimed it totally prevented infection or transmission. But it did significantly lower the rate.

                                                                                                                                                          • BrandoElFollito 6 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                            Please stop stating idiocies and behave like a grown-up.

                                                                                                                                                            Look at the numbers and you will see the drop in BOTH the number of infections, AND the transmissions (because of a reduced viral payload).

                                                                                                                                                            These are sensibly larger than would be expected from natural herd immunity due to infections.

                                                                                                                                                            Vaccines also greatly reduced the severity of the disease, when caught anyway.

                                                                                                                                                            If you do not believe in science, treat this as a religion and do it anyway without thinking.

                                                                                                                                                        • n4r9 15 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                          Whenever someone complains about being treated "worse than dogs" I have to wonder how they think dogs should be treated. To be fair, if dogs could catch COVID and pass it onto humans they'd likely have banned unvaccinated dogs as well.

                                                                                                                                                      • mmustapic 16 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                        I also live in Europe and tip, specially if I know that the salary of the staff heavily depends on tips. Also, if the service wasn’t great, I also tip, maybe they weren’t having a good day, like when I’m not that productive some day at my coding job.

                                                                                                                                                        If I ever find the system too unfair for the workers, then I won’t go to those restaurants anymore.

                                                                                                                                                        • sorenjan 15 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                          > I also live in Europe and tip, specially if I know that the salary of the staff heavily depends on tips.

                                                                                                                                                          > If I ever find the system too unfair for the workers, then I won’t go to those restaurants anymore.

                                                                                                                                                          Sounds like you only tip once at each restaurant then? Not paying a reasonable salary to employees and assuming they'll beg customers for extra money to make up the difference seems unfair to me.

                                                                                                                                                          • mmustapic 13 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                            I can't say if it's unfair or not. I would prefer every worker to get a decent salary, but no idea how they feel in countries where tipping is widespread like the US. But, if I go to a restaurant in the US, or, Argentina (where tipping is also a thing), then I'll tip, and consider the price of the food to be 10, 15 or 20% more expensive. Otherwise, I won't go, because then I am complicit with the exploitation of the workers.

                                                                                                                                                            • account42 13 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                              The only reason they don't get a full salary is because people keep paying the difference with tips.

                                                                                                                                                              • GetTheFacts an hour ago

                                                                                                                                                                Is that you, Mr. Pink?

                                                                                                                                                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utksPm6KgjU [NSFW]

                                                                                                                                                                • array_key_first 2 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                  Incorrect, the reason they don't get a full salary is because tipping is allowed.

                                                                                                                                                                  If you don't tip, the worker does not magically get a salary. How would they? No, they actually make less money.

                                                                                                                                                                  This whole "well if you think about not tipping is actually giving them more money" thing is the purest and most refined form of cope I've ever seen. It obviously doesn't work like that. Maybe if everyone did it. But you just doing it does nothing.

                                                                                                                                                                  You're 100% allowed to not tip. What you're NOT allowed to do is not tip and then somehow try to claim you're helping the worker. You're not. Like, objectively, you're not. That's just literally not true.

                                                                                                                                                                  • mmustapic 12 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                    No, it's because of crappy labor laws

                                                                                                                                                                    • account42 12 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                      Those laws are downstream from tipping culture.

                                                                                                                                                                      • mmustapic 12 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                        Could be, but the way to fix it is with labor laws.

                                                                                                                                                              • bjourne 15 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                Then give your excess money to a homeless person or donate it to Amnesty. We don't want or need the "pressured to tip" culture here.

                                                                                                                                                                • mmustapic 13 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                  No, homeless people should not live from tips, they should be helped by the government. I live in Belgium and tip because I'm used to (I'm from Argentina) and I know the staff is happy when I do it.

                                                                                                                                                                  • bjourne 7 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                    And restaurant workers should be paid by their employers. If the goal is to spread happiness then, again, the homeless person trumps the employee.

                                                                                                                                                                    • mmustapic 5 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                      And they are in Europe, thanks to strong labour laws!

                                                                                                                                                              • hunterpayne 16 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                Fine but a few things. 1) the service at restaurants and bars in Europe is terrible. 2) the employees at US restaurants and bars often make more money than people doing the same job in Europe. 3) it allows the folks with more money pay a larger share and those with less to pay a bit less.

                                                                                                                                                                The problem with tipping is tipping in places which aren't restaurants and bars.

                                                                                                                                                                • rb666 14 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                  The service in Europe is great in many many places. My experience with US service is that it feels very fake most of the time. Plus, staff having their own table/zone means you cannot ask any other waiter to help out cause "it's not their table". That's one of the many problems with this tip culture.

                                                                                                                                                                  I agree with the tiered pricing argument, but ehm, you know you are allowed to tip in Europe also right? If you are rich and feel benevolent, feel free to leave cash on the table. You don't need others to be forced into dark-pattern PIN machines or feel guilty for not paying more than the bill for that reason.

                                                                                                                                                                  • PlatoIsADisease 13 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                    >The service in Europe is great in many many places. My experience with US service is that it feels very fake most of the time. Plus, staff having their own table/zone means you cannot ask any other waiter to help out cause "it's not their table".

                                                                                                                                                                    I'm literally 0 for 3 on those claims. Not sure how you have such experiences. Maybe its a choice of words 'Many many' could be like 20 places out of 10,000. Maybe 'feels very fake' is something that isn't actually a problem, and might be a benefit, so I didn't notice it. And that last line about 'not their table'... I can't say I've ever experienced it.

                                                                                                                                                                  • Yizahi 15 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                    Service in restaurants in Europe is way better than in USA. I don't want waiter to ask me anything except taking the order. I don't want to be ushered away as soon as I finished eating. I usually do that anyway, but I want to choose so myself and have option to sit and talk with my friend or family sometimes. I don't want to give my credit card to a stranger, who will carry it to some back room without control. An finally I want to pay exactly what is advertised, without scam fees or blackmail "tips".

                                                                                                                                                                    • technothrasher 15 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                      > Service in restaurants in Europe is way better than in USA.

                                                                                                                                                                      Eh. Having eaten at plenty of restaurants all over the USA and Europe, they seem equally littered with both good and bad service. Understanding and adjusting to the culture of individual countries helps make your experiences better.

                                                                                                                                                                      • mrweasel 13 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                        Yes, this isn't a question about the US or Europe.

                                                                                                                                                                        Some of the absolute worst service I've received have been in the US, yet they ask for tips. I've also received some of the best service at a US restaurant, where the suggested tip was 10% and the prices where pretty low.

                                                                                                                                                                        The weirdest thing I've experience is the large number of staff in US coffee shops, compared to locally, yet basically not being able to order, and then having a suggested tip at 20%. I've encountered this a multiple locations, and different chains. Four people, one person takes the order, one makes the drink, one continuously mop the floor and the last person just stands around (manager?) You could significantly increase the base pay by getting rid of two of these people.

                                                                                                                                                                        • PlatoIsADisease 13 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                          I know a server and it very much has to do with the client base.

                                                                                                                                                                          The poor area? Bad tipping.

                                                                                                                                                                          Middle class? Depends on the person

                                                                                                                                                                          Upper middle class? Big bucks.

                                                                                                                                                                    • orwin 15 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                      I totally disagree. The only good service I've found in the US was in very small cities (Fayetteville WV is the only name I remember and probably the biggest one). It also seems like restaurants there don't take their bread from local bakeries, and all their food, even vegetables, even in 30+ dollar meals, are from a food distributor. Here, if I pay more than 20 euros for a meal, I expect that at least the vegetable aren't from Metro, and if I pay more than 30, it's for sure a local fisherman/butcher that provided the proteins.

                                                                                                                                                                    • FranklinJabar 17 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                      If I can't tip, I don't go out. Cuz I don't have to.

                                                                                                                                                                      Granted, I also don't go to the EU if I can avoid it, and most places I make so much more money than the locals I don't mind a bit extra for the worker.

                                                                                                                                                                      • 47282847 17 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                        Did you ever work a job or were friends with people who did where tipping is a big part of the income?

                                                                                                                                                                        You make it sound like a general rule, but I don’t see how it is that “simple”. There are few things if any that you have to do in life. It’s all a decision and a tradeoff. Nobody forces you to breathe. Or to be friendly with your neighbors. Or a stranger.

                                                                                                                                                                        • sensanaty 17 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                          I worked in the service industry for a while and have literally never cared about tips, in the sense that the default expectation in 99% of cases is no tip and the rare time I got a tip it was a few euros extra at most. Of course, I didn't care because it actually paid an actual wage, vs the weird shit you yanks are up to.

                                                                                                                                                                          Hell, I know some people who have been working at restaurants as waiters for a long time now, and they live perfectly comfortably with 0 expectations around tips.

                                                                                                                                                                          I still don't tip, basically ever, my only exception is the rare time I get food delivered, because unlike a regular service job the apps don't pay a livable wage and the cut they take is gargantuan compared to what the drivers get.

                                                                                                                                                                          • trosi 17 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                            The "tips as compensation for your low salary" system exists only in the US and neighboring countries (Canada, Mexico) as far as I know.

                                                                                                                                                                            Now that they have started abusing it, it's even less defensible.

                                                                                                                                                                            • djvdq 15 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                              > Did you ever work a job or were friends with people who did where tipping is a big part of the income?

                                                                                                                                                                              In the EU people are paid fair salaries for their work, they don't have to beg for money from clients

                                                                                                                                                                              • kergonath 17 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                > Did you ever work a job or were friends with people who did where tipping is a big part of the income?

                                                                                                                                                                                The friends of mine who worked in bars were paid living wage without tips. So no, no need.

                                                                                                                                                                                • ikornaselur 17 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                  Most of my friends worked restaurants or bars when I was younger, tips were something some tourists would sometimes do and it would generally go into a pot for throwing a party for the staff few times a year. I have never tipped or seen a local tip in my home country.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Tips weren't a part of my friends income. The restaurant/bar paid them a salary.

                                                                                                                                                                                  • account42 13 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                    You could make that excuse for any dark pattern.

                                                                                                                                                                                    • anal_reactor 16 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                      Your point is valid because waiters earn more money when they have low salary and big tips than high salary but no tips. The problem is though, I simply don't care about how much waiters earn, just like waiters don't care about how much I earn. I will start tipping the day waiters start honestly caring about the software job market collapse.

                                                                                                                                                                                  • aleph_minus_one a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have a feeling that this HN submission is rather some test run which dark patterns work well on technically affine users. :-)

                                                                                                                                                                                    Having the knowledge which dark patterns even work well for technically affine users while still being "socially acceptable" can be worth a lot of money to specific companies.

                                                                                                                                                                                    • bugbrained 21 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                      Are you using "affine" to mean "for which one has an affinity"? I have never heard that nor can I see that as a wide-spread definition. Just curious!

                                                                                                                                                                                      • S3verin 18 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                        Maybe non native speaker, here in germany we often say "technisch affin" which means proficient with technology

                                                                                                                                                                                        • aleph_minus_one 17 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                          > here in germany we often say "technisch affin" which means proficient with technology

                                                                                                                                                                                          As a native German speaker, I indeed fell for this false friend. :-(

                                                                                                                                                                                          • umanwizard 18 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                            I’m a native English speaker and I have only ever heard “affine” as a technical term in mathematics, e.g. an affine transformation of vector spaces. I would have had no idea what it means outside of math.

                                                                                                                                                                                            However, OP’s usage seems logical, so I wouldn’t be upset if it became popular!

                                                                                                                                                                                          • vonunov 21 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                            I was wondering. Maybe "refined", as a derivative of the verb?

                                                                                                                                                                                            • sunrunner 19 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                              I think that poster is saying that here on HN posters typically preserve points, lines and parallelism. Rude, quite honestly.

                                                                                                                                                                                            • calvinmorrison a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                              In fact, odds on someone who was complicit in developing many of the dark patterns that have run billions of dollars from consumers is reading this from their phone, thinking they should go to bed so they can wake up to the acai bowl, cold plunge, and early retirement to hobbies in seattle.

                                                                                                                                                                                              • ryandrake 21 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                Exactly. We're doing this to ourselves. These horrible patterns are an HN reader's JIRA ticket next week, and they're going to happily implement them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                • deaux 20 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Are you actually complicit in this or do you really feel such a part of the "tech community" that you truly consider it as a "we"?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  If the former, stop doing it right now and atone.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  If the latter, I don't think that's healthy, you have nothing to do with it unless you're at a FAANG or something.

                                                                                                                                                                                              • tonymet 7 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                The hosting provider is actually Clover POS and they are using this game to train their AI on which dark patterns yield the highest fee collections for Clover /jk

                                                                                                                                                                                                • frameworkeGPU a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                  jfc new 'orthogonal' just dropped

                                                                                                                                                                                                • sota_pop 19 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                  This reminds me of a gag voting simulation website from the early 2000s when BushJr was running for president against Al Gore. The (maybe flash?) game simulated voting, but when you tried to click, the buttons would “run away” from the cursor, or change size to avoid being clicked… dark patterns… always fun to “play against”.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  More recently though, I must say, YouTube has really jumped the shark in terms of perfecting their dark patterns/algo stickiness. I can’t even go to the site without immediately forgetting my original intent.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  • smilespray 18 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Also see The Simpsons, Treehouse of Horror XIX, where Homer tries to vote for Obama using an electronic voting machine:

                                                                                                                                                                                                    https://youtu.be/47QZ6PoHl44

                                                                                                                                                                                                    • mrguyorama 7 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yesterday I scrolled down the front page of my Youtube, and saw the "shorts" shelf. I clicked "Show me fewer shorts" like I have a hundred other times.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I did something else for a few minutes, then I scrolled down another page or so.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      The shorts were right there again.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Google is evil. Anyone still working for them is enabling this.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      • croisillon 18 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                        i'm old too and remember that, i believe it was javascript, not flash

                                                                                                                                                                                                      • O5vYtytb a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Buy me a coffee? Jokes on you I just practiced avoiding this.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        • bestouff a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                          "But me a coffee" should instantly loose the game forever.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          • icedrift a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                            I chortled when I choked an input and accidentally clicked that

                                                                                                                                                                                                          • presentation 21 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                            I like how at the end the author tries to get you to give him a tip with the buy me a coffee link

                                                                                                                                                                                                            • syntaxing a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                              I once went to go pick up takeout and they covered the no tip button with a sticker. I was so confused so I put in 10 cents because I could find the button at first. I stopped going to the place since.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              • Zealotux 16 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                Tipping culture is properly weird to me as an European, I probably tip much more than the average European and I still find these prompts obnoxious, and they're popping everywhere in Barcelona. No thank you, that's a part of the U.S. culture I certainly don't want to see imported over here.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                • ryanmcbride 2 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Reminds me of the game Ad Attack from Neopets. Back when the plague on the internet was popup ads.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Wild how we're back in popup hell now just like we were back then, even though the method for web popups is different now.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • qingcharles 21 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I help a blind friend order his groceries online from Walmart once a month. He's disabled and on food stamps (EBT/Link). The groceries are all taken care of, but the site always requests a $30 tip for the driver.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I drop it down a bit and pay it on my credit card for him, but what's the right way to deal with this situation?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • Jolter 19 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      A 30$ tip? Does this company not give their drivers a wage, or something?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • slumberlust 13 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ironically, they do not. They are the largest employer of employees on welfare.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • spjt 21 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Walmart InHome is $40/year and no tips.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • pests 19 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Wow, that's not bad.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "Walmart InHome is a premium service that delivers groceries and essentials directly into a customer's home (fridge/kitchen) or garage, using trained, vetted Walmart associates. As an add-on to Walmart+, it costs an additional $40/year (or $7/month) to provide unlimited, tip-free, and free-delivery-fee service."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Can even do it when you aren't home.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • mrguyorama 7 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            My sister has run her Daycare company and family off this service for many years and has high praise for the service.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • qingcharles 4 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Wow, thank you, I had no idea about this. Going to look into it. He has Walmart+ which you get for half price if you are on benefits, which also removes the regular $9.95 delivery fee.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • UltraSane 21 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Man $30 can still buy a lot of food at Aldi

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • 0xDEFACED 21 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            is there a name for the phenomenon where a user immediately assumes the smallest and lowest contrast button on an interface is the option they want, before actually reading any of the words?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • xeonmc 20 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Enter through the narrow gate, for the gate is wide and the road is easy that leads to destruction, and there are many who take it. For the gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  [Matthew 7:13-14]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • daemonologist 19 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm not aware of a specific term, another than just conditioning, but I am reminded of "banner blindness" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banner_blindness

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                (I was definitely expecting a level to swap the contrast eventually as a trick.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • yard2010 15 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  This reversed cta thing is what I've been evolved to do. Always look for the opposite of a cta button and click it. This reconciles with the fact the incentives have been off for the past few years or decades.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • unglaublich 18 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I was waiting for the cases where they inverted this. That would really trick me. But it didn't happen in the few cases I tried.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • dotancohen 21 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Being conditioned.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • shmeeed 14 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        There should be one.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • latexr 16 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Fun idea but gets boring when patterns repeat in seemingly random order. The timer also sucks a lot of the fun out of it and makes the game too easy, because the patterns can’t be dark enough. I just plowed through without ever even looking at the wrong options, because it was so obvious what the right one was.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I’d much rather the game progressed in a fixed logical order and the choices became less obvious without a timer. In other words, I think this makes more sense as a puzzle game, not a reflexes game.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • zippyman55 a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Nice! I’ve started only tipping on fridays for coffee, etc. I’m a great tipper at restaurants But being hit up for a $5 tip for a $4 drink is way wrong. I’d tip you, but today is Thursday!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • kstrauser a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I tip great at sit-down restaurants. I don't tip at fast food places, or carry-outs where they don't actually provide and service, or at the oil change place.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Summary: if I didn't tip in a situation 10 years ago, I'm not going to start now.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • kulahan a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I tip my barista and budtender a dollar every visit, personally. I love those people though. Restaurants get 20% unless they fuck up, then it's 15%, unless it was absolutely egregious.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              That's it. I cut my own hair.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • bigstrat2003 21 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                IMO restaurant tips (and other service businesses) are 15% by default, 20% if they do well, 10% if they do poorly. If they do especially poorly (like, completely ignoring the table for an hour while chatting with coworkers off to the side), they get $.02. If they do especially well, more than 20% (I've gone as high as 50% once).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • elAhmo 17 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  This mentality of doing 20% by default for something you already paid is what got us in this situation.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  People should be paid a living wage by default.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • kulahan 15 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Once someone can tell me what, specifically, a living wage is, I imagine this will stop being the most annoying phrase on the planet.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • ebonnafoux 15 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      There can be a lot of definition but I propose " a wage where you do not need to annoy your customer for tip".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • Yizahi 15 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Do you tip your local cashier in the groceries store? Do you tip the bus driver who took you to work? Do you tip a bank clerk who processed your application? If no, then this is a living wage.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Also not having "tips" prevents freeloaders from not paying taxes, which every other worker in the country pays fairly.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • rudolftheone 10 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      You understand that you are PAYING EXTRA for the especially poor service?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • kstrauser a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      My barber earns his fat tip taming my unruly cowlicks. Barista and bartender? Definitely. Cashier at a convenience store? Oh hell no.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • eclipticplane a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My barber earns his fat tip by being my therapist.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • kstrauser 21 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I get it. That's worth the compensation.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • Larrikin 20 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Have you taken into account that tips are no longer taxed and adjusted these arbitrary percentages?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • PopAlongKid 11 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >tips are no longer taxed

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Tips (if reported) are always subject to 7.65% FICA tax. And there are several conditions that must be met before tips are excluded from federal (not necessarily state) income tax. (U.S. tax law). In short, many tips are still fully taxed despite false promises to the contrary.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • hbs18 17 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          As a European, I never understood why you'd tip automatically. I get that waiters are allowed to be paid less, but I don't see why that would be the customer's problem.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • latexr 16 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I also don’t get the logic of tipping a percentage of the cost. Asking for several cheap beers is more work for the waiter than a single bottle of expensive wine, yet the latter earns them more?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • kulahan 16 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Because it's part of our culture and it's an easy way to show appreciation. You don't have to do it anywhere. Waiters also explicitly aren't allowed to be paid less. They must make at LEAST minimum wage. If they don't make minimum after tips, their hourly rate is raised each paycheck to equal minimum wage. It's literally not the customer's problem. You should probably learn how things work here if you're that curious!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • array_key_first an hour ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                7.25 is not a livable wage anywhere really, so even at 7.25 they would need tips to live. It really is the customers problem to pay them - their employers get off on 2.13 mostly, and 7.25 if they're extremely unlucky.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                And yes, I'm American. Of course it's culture, but more than that we want waiters to not starve to death so we tip. You can, of course, choose not to but I consider it an asshole move knowing what they're making.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • basilikum 11 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Waiters also explicitly aren't allowed to be paid less. They must make at LEAST minimum wage. If they don't make minimum after tips, their hourly rate is raised each paycheck to equal minimum wage.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  That means they are allowed to be paid less than minimum wage. Wage is paid by the employer, not the employer's customer. If the employer can deduct the tips from the minimum wage, that explicitly means that they are allowed to pay tipped workers less and that tipping does not provide any additional income but instead only shifts the responsibility of paying people for their work to the customer. Tips are are nothing but gifts to the employer.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > and it's an easy way to show appreciation.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  If something is socially expected simply as part of protocol and people only do it out of the social pressure not to deviate from the norm and be seen as assholes, then that is not appreciation.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Panda4 11 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Show my appreciation to what?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • codazoda a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I also cut my own hair, but sometimes I’m lazy and just hit up the Barber shop.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  She charges me $15! I tip +$25 and it’s still a cheap haircut.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  My haircut has to be one of the simplest around, but 9 out of 10 stylists will leave me fixing it myself later. Once I paid $50+tip for the same cut at a swanky joint and STILL went home and fixed it. She doesn’t know what she’s worth.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • IshKebab 18 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  In the UK the sort-of rule is that you tip for 10% food if you pay after receiving it (and that's pretty much the only situation where anyone tips).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  It seems like since the pandemic even that is less expected though, which is nice.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • roryirvine 10 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Taxis used to expect tips, black cab drivers often still do.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    People used to play this whole unpleasant game of saying "round it up to £30 if you do me a receipt", and the driver providing a fistful of blank receipts in return - almost as if expenses fiddling was less shameful than tipping.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thankfully, the likes of Uber and mandatory card payment terminals in cabs have ended all that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • Mr-Frog a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  My current strategy for how much total I'll pay for a coffee is FlOOR(price+.50) + 1, which keeps the bill nice and clean and kicks some goodwill towards someone who makes less than 1/5th the average earnings of my coworkers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • foo12bar 20 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm going to charge you $1.50, then.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • SoftTalker a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I make my own coffee. It's not hard.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • cactusfrog a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sometimes I want coffee before I make my coffee

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • wxre 11 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The trick is to prep your coffee machine the night before. I've only done it a few times, but it was very nice to wake up to that surprise.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • IshKebab 18 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > kicks some goodwill towards someone who makes less than 1/5th the average earnings of my coworkers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The coffee shop owners? They're probably making a decent amount of money no?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • SoftTalker 8 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Probably not. Food service is ruthlessly competitive and making a profit after paying for product, rent, utilities, labor, financing and/or franchise fees is easier said than done.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • umanwizard 18 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Where asks you for a $5 tip for a $4 drink? I’ve never seen anything like that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • zippyman55 11 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Ive totally seen it at local coffee shops in the Pacific Northwest. When I do see it, and if I’m in a tipping mood, I slide the other way.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • tedchs a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The "buy me a coffee" button at the end is :chefskiss:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • K0balt 13 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Now more than ever it is against your best interests to tip on any automated platform. The data collected will definitely be used against you in algorithmic pricing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          These days it pays to aggressively demonstrate that you are price sensitive and will delay or cancel transactions at the slightest whiff of additional expense.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I only ever tip off-platform or cash even if I pay with card. Also that helps to enable my gift to go only to the service provider. It fucks me on some platforms but I find that an acceptable cost to not get algorithmically spitroasted. Besides, it also helps to eliminate predatory platforms from my ecosystem.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • dizzant 12 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Can an industry insider confirm this tracking? Interesting take, thank you. I hadn’t considered the privacy implications of tipping.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • xplt 10 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              E.g. Uber / UberEats offer lower fairs to drivers if the client is expected to tip higher. I'm not an insider, but it can be observed in the wild as discussed on Reddit.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • ianboyko 3 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Tip-creep is still better than the alternative, which is denying customers the option to tip at all.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • sourcegrift 21 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Great game. I squirmed at typing "no tips" the first time but second time was fine. I'm going to practice this a lot more to tonne down some (frequently abused) empathy

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • aitchnyu 16 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yup, apply 93 kg more than an imperial ton on those thieves.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • throwaway2016a 11 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                First I will say, I am very much against dark patterns and I believe servers should be paid a fair wage and not have to rely on tips.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                But until that I do tip for dine-in service. But I found the "buy me a coffee" link on the button of this to be much funnier / ironic than it probably should have been.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                It's also missing what I think is the worst dark pattern:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Having no option not to tip at all. Instead requiring that the customer press "Custom" and manually entering "0.00"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • randycupertino a day ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • bambax 17 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The most shocking part of the game is the price of goods! $14, $17 dollars for one meal to be eaten standing up? Wow. Here in Paris sandwiches cost between EUR 4 and 6 (usually 5), with a "menu" option that includes a can of soda and sometimes a "dessert" for 9-10. Anything above that would be considered extorsion.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • benhurmarcel 16 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Right, at the same time the median salary for a full time job in the US is $5280/month, that €4450. In France it's €2183, half as much.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • bambax 16 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Your user name being a reference to Coluche you're probably French? As a French you probably know these aren't exactly comparable. Yes, the US are probably richer than France per capita -- but not twice as much.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • Liftyee a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Actually doesn't make for a bad reaction time and processing game since you need to think fast and avoid distractions.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Mobile offers a speed boost for taps but heavy nerf to text entry tasks.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • spaceman3 16 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Really nice game OP. Would you consider making a version of the game with no timer?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I was thinking in sending this link to my family but probably the timer is really fast for them but I think they could used your app as "training" so they know how to spot a dark pattern in the future

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • _blk 19 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I was gonna tip the developer but it feels like losing now

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • rkomorn 19 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Intentionally and knowingly tipping is winning, no?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Unless we start arguing that gratitude is a dark pattern.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • joshuaheard 19 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I had food delivered the other day and the suggested tip included tax and the delivery fee in it's calculation.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • fogzen 20 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            It should be illegal to solicit tips when asking for payment.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • Markoff 17 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Easier approach - make tips completely illegal as tax evasion or tax them higher than the meal, let's say 100% tax on tips.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • Ekaros 17 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Treat them as bribes. Punish the one who gives one with fine(1% of income/net wealth) and one who takes with mandatory imprisonment. After that they will quickly go away.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • amarant a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Made me want to sing that classic song from the animated movie "sausage party"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              "Just the tip"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • spjt 21 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm one of those cowards that always succumbs to the pressure and ends up tipping, but it bothers me enough that I just won't buy anything if I know I'm going to get asked. This is good training.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • distances 19 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've started using cash more again to avoid the question.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • UltraSane 21 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    It is fun to look them in the eye as you decline the tip.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • tommica 19 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Got to round 8 - was too slow with the notifications popping up!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    How many of these are real dark patterns? The "new entry suddenly prepended to the list" one I have seen before.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • hardlianotion 15 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Are all of these dark patterns seen in the wild? OR are some of these merely a dreadful warning of what may happen?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • MarceliusK 15 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It's one thing to read about dark patterns, it's another to feel your cursor being baited in real time

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • skrlet13 3 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I won hehe

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • rspoerri 21 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I tried to tip OP 0$, but that wasn't possible.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • chungy 18 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Are all these food items real? Some of them sound made up...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              and are these California prices? It's totally bonkers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • alvatar 17 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Should be mandatory training to obtain the ESTA permit to enter USA (even if just for transfers)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • matt123456789 12 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hilarious. I lost it when it started asking who to fire.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • lubitelpospat 21 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Are any of these illegal in the US or Canada?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • gs17 21 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The one where the options move when you hover over them feels like it should be but might not actually be.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • dotancohen 20 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Somebody had to invent it, and a lawmaker had to become aware of it, before a law could address it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • loeber 21 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "Hold to skip tip" was devilish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • markussss 15 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The written price is the written price, and that's final. No tips.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • wellf 15 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Damn I hit that coffee button and paid $100 tip. Expensive game.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • zerof1l 13 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I hate the tipping culture in the USA and Germany. Instead of being an extra, it feels like an obligatory surcharge I have to pay just to receive the service, good or bad. I usually don’t return to restaurants or bars that nag for tips. In those few places that I like and visit regularly, I don’t give tips. Me being a regular customer brings them more revenue than any tip I’d give otherwise.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Somehow, employers of these establishments convinced the staff that it's the customer’s fault that their wages are inadequate and that they should go after the customers to get the difference. I would much rather pay a higher price and not hear anything about the tips.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • amelius 14 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              How well would an LLM score at this?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • tonymet 7 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                PB 34 skips!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • setnone 20 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Neat game! Is this called monetary abuse?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • kulahan a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    This was cool, but I got to one where it would load after every button you click. That's fine, but then I "lost" because it simply wouldn't load a winnable option in time it seems. Maybe I was moving too fast and missed the real button, but I still didn't tip in the end, so eh.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • MeetingsBrowser a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      There is a small "skip tip" link below the button

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • lordswork a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      fun idea but a bit repetitive and boring.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • kstrauser a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I hate every bit of this. Well done!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • vlad1m1r 14 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thank you!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • tonymet a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The darkest patterns are fees that don’t exist . Like 300% tax fees and nightly parking when parking is free

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • sciencejerk 18 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Instacart has these, or at least it used to. You pay an annual membership, thinking that it gets you out of fees, but the FULL invoice (very hard to locate!) show a mysterious service fee of $3-6.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • tonymet 7 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              shady!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • ThrowawayTestr a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I enjoyed the restaurant names

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • newsclues 15 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              This is where I want a digital wallet on my phone with payment details that I control (no tip, lowest fee possible)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • singularfutur 16 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Dark patterns are just polite robbery by corporations that realized psychological manipulation pays better than service. The grift is the product, not the bug.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • globular-toast 19 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've considered going back to cash just to avoid these. The social convention used to be the seller writes a price and if the buyer can meet that price the deal is done. These abusive card machines have brought "tipping culture" to the UK and I hate it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Markoff 17 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    For X-Files fans who might be unfamiliar with the reboot, the reboot has actually one episode dedicated to this - S11E07 - Rm9sbG93ZXJz, Mulder/Scully don't want to tip the robotic self-service and are punished for it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Available to watch here: https://www.tvseries.video/series/the-x-files/season-11-epis...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • modeless 19 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Now do one where you have to withdraw your card from the machine before it starts beeping obnoxiously at you but the screen keeps trying to trick you into withdrawing too early.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • theYipster a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Superb!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • foo12bar 20 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Secret slow mode for us boomers: https://skipthe.tips/?debug=1

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • mikepurvis a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            "buy me a coffee"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • bibimsz 21 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              lol, it got me to do 5% more on the first try.. i lost.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              souls-like

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • mmooss 21 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Every checkout screen has become a guilt machine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Is bill-paying UI also a guilt machine? If you don't pay, you feel guilty! How about holding the door for elderly people? Going to your kid's event? Not running people over in the crosswalk? Saying please and thank you? Buying birthday presents? It's all so unfair - to me!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • nimz a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Why tip someone for a job I'm capable of doing myself? I can serve food, I can drive a taxi, I can and do cut my own hair. I did, however, tip my urologist.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • b00ty4breakfast 19 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    You definitely get the spit-coffee at the diner.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • torstenv 17 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I assume that my tip benefits the people who provide the service (Starbucks employees, not Starbucks shareholders). I also assume that the employees' salaries are not “great.” I am satisfied with my income, so I have no problem tipping. I tip little when the service is not good and tip a lot when the service is excellent.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • Mordisquitos 16 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I assume that my tip benefits the people who provide the service (Starbucks employees, not Starbucks shareholders).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I also assume that the employees' salaries are not “great.”

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The employees' salaries not being “great” benefits the shareholders. How the shareholders get away with paying such low salaries is left as an exercise to the reader.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • stbtrax 17 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yeah we all understand the basic premise. But it's applied completely unequally and you subsidizing their salary is keeping starbucks from paying them more. It creates unnecessary friction and decision fatigue for the consumer as well. Those farmworkers doing back breaking work to pick your berries? No tip.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • einpoklum 17 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Instead of assuming that - take the amount you wanted to to tip, and donate it to the Starbacks Workers' Union:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          https://sbworkersunited.org

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          or buy their merch to support that worthy struggle.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • alexjplant a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          On a separate but vaguely related note: if somebody comps all or part of your bill at a restaurant or bar then you should split the difference on the tip.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          As a practical example let's say you take a date to your local trendy sushi place. You both get gold-leafed deep fried Wagyu fatback tuna rolls and some Yuzu duck fat-washed 50-year-old whiskey highballs. The final bill is $100 (I'll use round-ish numbers for this example). The bartender comps you 30% because you all are cool and discuss your shared experience bartending or jetskiing or whatever. Ordinarily your tip would have been 20% for a total of $120. In this case your bill is now $70 plus your newly selected gratuity. Take the difference between the original bill with tip and your current bill without tip and divide it in two. This is the floor for your new tip, in this case (120-70)/2 = $25. This is indeed something like a 35% gratuity but they hooked you up and made that custom drink for your charming new beau. As a matter of fact you should round up from this number because they have side work to do and you make pretty decent money as a software engineer/LLM tickler/product sorcerer. Just make it $30 for a nice round hundo.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If you're friends with the manager and they comp your dinner to do you a solid and impress your date then you should tip 50% of what the bill would have been minimum. This is why you should keep cash in your pocket - shake the waiter's hand on your way out and palm it to them. If that's not possible then go to use the restroom and talk to them on your way back so they can run your card through the POS on a blank check to give them said tip.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          This is how you do things with class. This is what I wish somebody had explained to me when I was 20 and kinda broke (i.e. eager to save money that I would have spent anyway) before I embarrassed myself by failing to do such. If you are similarly unaware then now you know too :-)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          As an addendum this also applies to coffee and pizza places but the numbers become coarser. Buying them the equivalent of a beer at your local dive ($3ish) is customary.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • Trufa a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm really not trying to hate, I think you method is great and I love that you have rationalized it, but as someone whose mostly find this kind of social interactions natural, there's something "funny" about finding the algorithm for it. I never did the math and always naturally landed more or less there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • bcook 20 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I've only been given 1 free meal (by the manager). I just gave the entire difference as my tip. I was already going to spend the money, so why not make a random waiter happy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • chongli a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I've never been comped at any restaurant or bar.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I always thought that was a casino thing (to keep you drinking so that you gamble more) but I've never been to a casino. I live in Canada though, so we might have laws against that sort of thing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • MengerSponge a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Have you tried being really, really, ridiculously good looking?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • chongli 21 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Ahhh, I see. So the GP's whole spiel was just a humblebrag.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • ajkjk 20 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      you don't have to be good looking. you just have to go to the same place frequently, and be friendly.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • sunrunner 19 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You don’t have to be, but it helps not to be bad looking.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • ajkjk an hour ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          i think it is truly irrelevant

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          like, a good looking person will get the occasional comp on the basis of that, but you'll never be friends with the staff on the basis of that. whereas anyone can be friends with the staff, if they are friendly and earnest about it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • alexjplant 21 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I guess you missed the part where I talked about being friendly (or friends) with the waitstaff. Nice to know that you think I'm good looking though!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • orjustdont 19 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The way to do it with class would be the manager asks the price of the service, and pays the servers and tenders their due fair wage. The moment you bring money to a bunch of "ifs" surrounding a social interaction, you lost all class. Thinking of tips at all is actively detrimental to what you're trying to accomplish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • codazoda a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I recently had an entire meal at Chili’s comped by the manager, because I waited an hour for food. I guess their system flagged it, or they just noticed, because I didn’t complain. I was hanging with my grandson.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I tipped on the full amount but we had to get the manager again to figure out how. I was going to Venmo her but the manager just sent the $0.00 bill to the table.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • b0rtb0rt 20 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        if you had to wait an hour for the food, what was the tip for exactly?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • codazoda an hour ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I tipped the waitress, who was perfectly attentive the whole time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • sunrunner 19 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Perhaps codazoda asked to delay an hour as an excuse to stay longer, so they did well with their part of the plan?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • nvader 21 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Just pointing out that in your example, the waiter gives themselves a $30 bonus by giving you the option not to pay a tip.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • sunrunner 19 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I guess I’m still similarly unaware, because nothing about palming people money on the way out like a magician or doing the restroom trick feels classy over everyone just being super upfront about the bill and tips.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • 63stack 16 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > As a practical example let's say you take a date to your local trendy sushi place. You both get gold-leafed deep fried Wagyu fatback tuna rolls

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              "Practical example"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • umanwizard 18 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > As a practical example let's say you take a date to your local trendy sushi place. You both get gold-leafed deep fried Wagyu fatback tuna rolls and some Yuzu duck fat-washed 50-year-old whiskey highballs. The final bill is $100

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Are you a time traveler from like 1980?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • b0rtb0rt 20 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  feels like this post was written by a robot trying to act like a cool dude

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • CamelCaseName a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yeah, this is too much nonsense for me.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    If a waiter is comping something in exchange for a higher tip, that's not generosity or goodwill at all, it's a dishonest scam.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I will tip what I want to tip (often 0) without remorse and move on with my life.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Unfortunately this cancerous American system leeched into Canada, but we can still stop it, one $0 tip at a time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • sokka_h2otribe 21 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I think the procedure is being misinterpreted. This isn't a scam, it's just a common social convention. It's not a scam by the waiter because they have a limited amount they can do this for and they have just chosen to do it for you.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • schrectacular a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ... So pay your server for ripping off their employer?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • pgwhalen a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Is this how comping actually works? I’ve never worked in a restaurant, but I assumed there was some system for it (if sometimes ill-defined) and not just employees stealing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • alexjplant a day ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The receipt printer in the kitchen is tied to the POS. Anything rung in for prep is saved in the computer. The manager can run reports and see who comped what and if anything has been voided. This has been a thing since the 90s.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Creating a good guest experience is how you get repeat business. Comps are part of that. You are talking about theft and I mentioned nothing of the sort. If you choose to engage in such behavior then that's your business - don't accuse me of it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • iberator 19 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Only person who MAYBE should be tipped is the COOK. Bringing plate to table is trivial - cooking is not.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Tipping is a scam in the age of wages and pensions

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • rkomorn 19 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              As someone who's worked in restaurant kitchens but did one single day as a waiter for training, I'd basically never work as a server, even for tips and the extra money.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Cooking was way easier.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I agree the whole tipping system in the US is a mess, though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • drnick1 20 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        A guy with short hair should not have to pay more than $20 for a basic haircut, inclusive of tip. If you can't find someone that does it for less than that in your area, invest about $100 in professional grade clippers and cut your own hair. It's easier than it sounds and you will get better at it over time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Learn to make your own coffee. You shouldn't have to pay more than a couple of bucks for coffee with perhaps some milk in it. An espresso machine and a grinder will quickly pay for themselves.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        While you are at it, cancel all those streaming subscriptions, and stream for free in the high seas or YT ad-free with uBlock.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The above "tips" will save your thousands of dollars each year, and most likely also save you time. There are also things like DIY car maintenance that can be fun to learn and save you a lot of money, but you need space (a house) and some tools to get started.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • pests 19 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > While you are at it, cancel all those streaming subscriptions, and stream for free in the high seas

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Setting up jellyfin+plex (some devices support one but not the other) and most of the arr suite (radarr, sonarr, prowlarr, tunarr) has really been the best choice I've made this year. I have every TV show or movie I ever want to watch, all my favorites, all the classics. And all in one place. And I made sure to keep it local-first so I still have access at home if we lose internet. Started sharing with family and friends and I get a few requests a week to add content, so its being used.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Just removing the "what streaming service is this show on that im watching?" has been a nice improvement.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • distances 19 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > An espresso machine and a grinder will quickly pay for themselves.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Or a pour over filter (like Kalita Wave or Hario V60) plus a grinder. That's a cheaper setup to start, and an easy way to get a big mug of great coffee.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • jeffwass 13 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Does annybody worry about sabotage if you don’t tip? Eg the cashier does something to your food? “Nice muffin you got there, I’d hate for it to get accidentally sneezed on.”

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I recently bought my mom flowers for her birthday. Despite the price showing no delivery fee, the final price included $15 delivery charge, $8 service charge, taxes, and then asked me for a tip.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I chose no tip, expecting the delivery and service charge should cover everything.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The flowers were left on her front porch in below-freezing weather, they didn’t even knock or ring the doorbell. Luckily my mom happened to open the door and saw them before they completely froze.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            So was the delivery person incompetent, or acting out because I didn’t add additional tip?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • wxre 11 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I don't call those tips, they are bribes or bids. I avoid all delivery services personally as much as possible and I'm fortunate to have a car.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • shultays 10 hours ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I would expect/hope that the deliver person does not know the tips for individual orders.